Better Together with Melissa Kruger | Word First

[Music] We're so glad you joined us on the ERLC podcast to explore how the Bible addresses important cultural issues pertaining to life, religious liberty, marriage and family, and human dignity, and how we can walk in wisdom for God's glory, and for the flourishing of our neighbors. If you're enjoying this podcast and find it helpful, please leave a review wherever you listen. This will help more people find and benefit from what we're learning together. We are grateful for the time you take to join us for these conversations. [Music] We're better together. >> I had no idea that this is what I'd be spending my life doing. Um that there would be, >> you know, that you wish you had 2020. Um that I could have a job at a church never even crossed my mind. And so I think as those jobs are slowly coming available that there will be more and more women going to seminary to get that kind of training. Hi, I'm Trillian Newell and I'm excited to announce our series Better Together. The series captures our desire to partner together as men and women in the church and beyond to advance the kingdom with mutual support and care. Better together will address a wide range of topics from sexual abuse, leadership, women in work, women's ministry, and so much more. Our goal is to inform and equip listeners on matters most important to women in the areas of church, home, and work. >> Today, I'm super excited because we have my friend and her name is Melissa Krueger. She's the director of women's content for the Gospel Coalition and she also serves on staff for her women's ministry at her local church. Thank you so much for being here, Melissa. Thanks for having me, Trillia. It's so good to be with you. >> Absolutely. Well, I am going to just dive straight into this. It's funny because I shared on social media that you and I were going to be having this conversation and almost immediately women responded. I can't wait to hear this. So, no pressure, but we are going to be talking about training and equipping women. And I do believe it's something that over the last several years we have been we've seen other people starting to to pay attention and think through these topics and you are um primed for this because of what the work you do both with TGC and your local church. So you kind of understand both contexts how it works um broadly beyond the local church but also how we can apply this in the local church. So when we're talking about it here, what do you think we should be or we're talking about from your perspective? >> Yeah, I I do have I've been thankful to have actually kind of a unique view. Um I'm so thankful 10 years ago my church hired me to do women's ministry in the local church, which that in and of itself is kind of a rarity sometimes in our day and age. Yeah, I remember when I was talking to someone and she said, "So, you're paid on staff at your church to do women's ministry?" And I was like, "Yeah, it's it's great." So, I've had 10 years of getting to work in the local church and um understand what that's like, but also to really understand what the realities and the needs are in the local church, which are often different than what we see in on Twitter. As you and I both know, we've talked about this before, right? >> That sometimes what's happening in these big macro discussions isn't really even filtrating down to the local church because sometimes in the local church what you see um are women who are just struggling to get through the day, right? >> So it it's hard to think about training because a lot are suffering, a lot of I mean going through just really difficult things. And so um it's a helpful view to have that yes um these discussions that take place at a larger level are really important but we have to get the content that we believe is so important to real people. And so we have to understand what are limitations, what are struggles, what are what is a practical way we can actually get the equipping and training to women who live in real lives and have real struggles and have real busyness going on. So how do we do that in a way that serves the serves the local church well? >> Well, let's talk about that. How do we do that? Because one of the things that I also know because I do know you is that you have a desire to disciple women. You have a desire for disciplehip. So I'm wondering if that is um more of the focus for the local church is how to train women to be disciplemakers or what what do you think I is the difference or the focus that we should be thinking about when we're thinking about the local church context? >> Yeah. Well, one thing um that I think is so important is that we're providing training in every level of disciple making for both men and women. So, a lot of this should be basic disciplehip in the church. You know, that we're learning how to share our faith. I I consider on the continuum of disciplehip, you know, that's the first moment. Evangelism is the first moment of making a disciple, right? >> But it's not the only moment of making a disciple. It's just the start of the continuum because Jesus said, "Go out into all the world, make disciples, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded." >> So, while evangelism starts the disciplehip process, that's that's, you know, just the start of a lifelong journey of knowing God. And so, I really what I've seen in the local church that I've been a part of and I'm really thankful for is that the equipping that we're doing for the men is completely available to the women. So when we teach how to teach the Bible, it's taught to men and women in our congregation. So one of the most simple ways we can train and equip women is to invite them to anything we're training and equipping men for. Um because a lot of it is the same, you know, I mean, teaching the Bible, learning about genre and context and all of these things is neither male or female. Absolutely. How to be a good student of the Bible. And so we can learn those things together and then it takes it off the plate. Really? It takes it off my plate because I don't have to teach that to my women because they're being taught through our Sunday school program if that makes sense. It >> makes complete sense. >> Yeah. And so it's like we're getting, you know, everyone trained is what we really need um in the local church. And I think as that happens then women um we sometimes might need specific training for different things but it really I think in the context of the local church we have a lot of really good resources um as long as we are inviting women to participate in those. Well, one of the things that you said at the beginning is that when we look at some of the topics and issues that we're thinking about in the broader culture, it doesn't always equate or translate to the local church. And so when we're thinking about some of the things that women, they're just trying to get out of bed and get get their work done. I know the answer to this in my head, but I wonder what you think. Why is it then important to train women um and equip them when we're thinking about um helping women read the word and also teach the word and of course apply the word. So so what do you why is this important? >> Yeah. Well, I know for my own life, it has been the study of the word that has brought life and encouragement and comfort and healing in those places when I'm suffering. Um, one thing my husband my husband is a pastor at a church and he works in as at a seminary um, training pastors and when he and I go to minister with people who are suffering, one thing he has said he has noticed um, in those moments often often their questions are theological. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Um, they want to know why did this happen? And you know what I have found and what I have tried to do it is really hard to develop a theology of suffering when you are suffering. >> Yes. >> Um it is extremely painful because the very person who could be your comfort, God becomes the very one you're wrestling with. And I think that's normal for all of us when we go through suffering. We always wrestle with God in some ways. But when we when we don't have a foundational understanding of what the promises or of scripture really are and when we've bought into false gospels that say come to Jesus and your life will be completely perfect and it will never be hard and everything will be good for you. >> You know when we interpret those things outside of the context of the rest of scripture that his best good for you is to make you look like Jesus. you know, when we when we lose sight of what he's really trying to accomplish, which is not an easy life for us sometimes, we need the whole context of scripture to really understand what God is doing um when we suffer in in different ways. And so absolutely >> one thing I just find so that basic disciplem is really the picture you know when Jesus said don't build your house on the sand because storms are going to come he didn't say if he said when the storm came the house that was built on the rock stood firm and so essentially we're helping people build their foundation on the rock. So most of the people who are dealing with these things in life, they are profoundly theological questions. They may not even know they are, but they really are theological questions they're asking. Um, and so as much as we can build that foundation before certain things in life, I think our our people and our churches will be um strengthened and encouraged. >> Absolutely. Disciplehip. >> Absolutely. I was just telling a group of women that I have suffered miscarriages and I remember after my second miscarriage um I was so just um despondent and I was laying down in bed and I didn't want to get up and I could rehearse scriptures that I had been reading and pondering on um about God's character over and over again. I and I remember saying to the Lord, "I can't right now. I'm struggling to open your word, but I know you are good. You are sovereign. You are a just God, but you're also my father. So, I can run to you to your throne of grace and receive mercy and help in my time of need. And I I was able to rehearse those because I spent time in college just reading and reading and reading and in my single years reading and reading and and so I I realized at that moment what a gift it was sitting in studying God's word and building a foundation of um a theology of God, who he is, so that when I couldn't open my Bible, I could just rehearse it. I was also thinking is it Ji Packer who is going blind? Melissa, >> that's a I think I think you were right about that. Well, I was I was telling them because I believe it is Packer who is who has recently shared that he was going blind and I was telling them how wonderful it is that he has spent so many years >> just writing about the Lord, studying about God, teaching us about God, and that when he does go blind and he no longer has the word that he can read it that he will be able to rehearse. so much. So, so it is it's essential for us to make sense of not just our lives but of God to to dive in God's word. So, when we're thinking about training and equipping, we aren't just talking about building a block of knowledge that will puff us up. We're talking about life so that we can um Absolutely. Yeah. and knowing God. taking it off the local church. I know that seminaries and yours in particular are working and thinking of ways to help train and equip women. Can you tell us a little more about that? >> Yes. I'm so thankful I'm so thankful one to just be married to a man who always loved that I was interested in theology. You he was never he saw that as a great thing. Like here's this woman. I I like her and she likes to talk about what I do. So, you know, it's it's been so nice to have just a husband that you love to share in these things with. And one thing he always wants to do, he just loves to build up the church through teaching the Bible. And so, one thing he's been doing for the past few years, he's actually taught a women's Bible study um during the day, >> which I love. >> I do, too. It's It's been the best Bible study I've ever been a part of. Um, and I know I'm completely biased, but it's been so rich for my own soul. Um, to go and a lot of the women, there are women from all over the city. A lot of the women are leaders and so they are teaching Bible study in their own communities, but this has just been a place that they could come and get fed. And so, it's been really nice to see. And they, some of them haven't felt ready to go to seminary yet. But I think it's made them say, "Oh, I can get like almost seminary level training to help me in my growth." But one thing we we just try to do, it's kind of the same philosophy of the local church is when we have these events, invite women leaders in the community as we invite male leaders in the community. So, next week actually, we're having a seminar. Michael Horton will be here and they've invited ministry leaders, both male and female, to come and hear him on some topics and to learn and to grow. Um, so the seminary is perfectly equipped to do that in so many wonderful ways. But specifically, we're really trying to get female students. They'll be um coming out sometime this spring. Um, we'll hear about a new um scholarship that's going to be just for women. And so we're so excited about that. that all the details haven't been worked out yet, but um just trying to get women equipped so that they can go into the local church and serve because one thing I do hear from churches a lot, I hear from a lot of churches who want to hire a woman on staff. They would love to have a seminary trained woman, but there just aren't a lot of us, you know, because even I don't know if you felt this way when I was going through I think I would have loved to have gotten a seminary degree, but it didn't seem like an option. I had no idea that this is what I'd be spending my life doing. Um that there would be, >> you know, that you wish you had 2020. Um that I could have a job at a church. Never even crossed my mind that that would be available to me um as an option. And so I think as those jobs are slowly coming available that women could see how they could use their degree practically and it you know that there will be more more and more women going to seminary to get that kind of training which is what we're hopeful for. >> No that's excellent. formal training is so helpful and it's helpful for equipping and it it will only I guess this model that I'm seeing with your husband on the local church context but also RTS is really what we hope for. The title of this uh series is called better together. And what I see you all doing is working together to try to help train and equip and advance the gospel ultimately. And so where do you see and how might men and women partner together for training and equipping? >> Yeah, that's such a good question, Trulia. You know, it's funny. I don't I've been doing that Bible in a year program. I know you were going to do it as well. I am doing it. And just last just just two days ago, we finished up Exodus and they were doing the building of the temple. And one thing I was really struck by was how it it said multiple times both men and women came and used their gifts to build the temple. And it was this beautiful picture like women are making these beautiful embroideries and all these things and these men are building the ark of the covenant and there's this and they brought so much that they had to tell the people stop bringing gold and jewelry because we've got enough. You know, it's this wonderful picture of an overflow of people working together to build the temple of God. And to me, it was just this wonderful vision of what the kingdom going forth should look like as it comes. And as we build up the church together, um, men and women bringing our gifts, working together, everyone is called to go and make disciples and that if half the church isn't doing that, we've got a huge problem. Um, and rather than an overflow, we're always going to be walking with a limp. And so I do see more and more men and women seeing, hey, we have got to build the kingdom together. There is too much at stake um not to have every player in the game. It'd be like trying to play a football match or a soccer match and you only have half your team out there, you're gonna lose, you know, and so um and that starts with equipping. And then you know we have to be equipped so that we can do the work of ministry um as Ephesians talks about you know that we equip people to do the work of ministry. And so that also includes having opportunities that men and women are working together. And so while I fully, you know, believe that we have elders running our church and we have pastors who are men running the church, but one thing I'm I'm thankful to see starting to happen is more working together in that process. So for instance, our elders are getting ready to work on a 10-year plan for our church where it wants to go, but they're inviting our women's leadership team to talk about that together. So, so those men will eventually vote on a particular plan, but they're inviting and they desire the perspective of our women to help in that decision-making process. So to me, that's a beautiful way that we're building together because I think just as it wasn't good in the garden for Adam to be alone. >> It's not good for men in the church to be apart from the thoughts and perspective of their women >> in the church. >> Oh, that's so good. >> We need each other, you know, and and I need the men. I shouldn't be running a women's ministry in the church without their perspective. We need each other on both parts. So rather than having these separate silos, we're working together to build this beautiful temple, so to speak, as the Lord builds his church. >> There are going to be some who are discouraged in this area because they they've either received some sort of resistance or push back and it hasn't it hasn't gone as planned. they've they've done maybe even gone to their their leadership and they've they've tried to cast a vision and they don't the leadership doesn't have the vision whatever it is. So, how do we we're going to end with this. Would you encourage and and give hope to the to the woman in particular who's listening who who is discouraged? >> That's really good. Um one I think I just want to say you're doing the right thing. Um, it is completely within your calling to desire to help build the church. Um, that's a good thing to be asking and to be seeking to be creative with how you can help in that process. So, I just want to say keep trying um, keep going before your session. And I think that's a really good way to do it to keep talking to your pastor and seeking ways to influence. Um, for instance, even this this gathering we're going to have between our elders and our women leaders in the church. I I went to my pastor and asked and thankfully he said yes. But I think as women it's good for us to know we can take our ideas to the leaders of our church and just keep presenting. I've been told no in other cases. There there have been some things we've asked to do and we've been told no. And um so it's both it's it's taking both hand in hand that sometimes there are good reasons that nos are given and that we can trust from the Lord that they're given. Um but we can keep trying to go before them and and offer wisdom and influence and our desire to serve um in a variety of ways. I would also just say that if you're that to keep working to keep praying on on those things, but also it might be that your work takes you that that the no in one place opens up a door elsewhere to say yes. Um, and so that might be your neighbors that you start a Bible study in your neighborhood or or or something like that that we can get creative if avenues don't always open up um within our local church context. And I love the local church and I I totally believe in serving there in any way I can. But I also think sometimes we hear nos in certain areas so that we are drawn into other areas. We do what we can with what we have. And so the Lord might be saying, "Do this here because this wasn't available." Um, and that in some ways was my own story. I really wanted to go to a large Bible study at my church when I was about 28. I wanted to check my child into child care and get to hear someone teach me for an hour. That was not available for me because we actually didn't have older women in our church. So my group of friends and myself, we all started an outreach study in our neighborhood and that led to 13 years of Bible study in people's living rooms and it was wonderful and we saw people come to the Lord. We saw lives changed through teaching the word. So I would just say, you know, small things in your community can be done even if things don't open up within your church community for a season. No, that's that's really good and freeing. It's freeing. The workers are few and God's mission continues. And so that's that's a freeing and encouraging word. So, thank you so much, Melissa, for being on the podcast today. >> Oh, thanks so much for having me. I wish we could talk all afternoon. >> You and I actually can. We >> can't be a joy. Yes. Well, you have been listening to the ERLC podcast. I'm Trillia Newbell, the director of community outreach for the ERLC, and we hope you'll join us next time.