Do You See Her? How to Care for the Women in Your Church | Word First

well welcome we are so excited to look out and see this many people this many men and women wanting to know and talk about how to best Shepherd and care for women in your local congregation so thanks for being here I'm Courtney doctor I'm the director of women's initiatives at the Gospel Coalition and I'm going to let Melissa and Vanessa introduce themselves I'm Melissa Krueger I'm um this is bad okay we're really tired so just be prepared for what this session might um I'm I'm the VP of discipleship programming for the Gospel Coalition and I'm Vanessa Hawkins I'm the director of community life for Redeemer Lincoln Square in New York City um as well as one of the Keller Center fellows and we have known each other for over a decade so this is really sweet to be able to do this together because the three of us have been doing women's ministry in and out of each other's lives for for quite a while so it's a joy to be able to be here with you and what we're hoping is that there will be enough time at the end and to just hear from you all what you're interested in hearing about so that's why the two microphones were just set up so we're going to try and get there so if there's something that you're really eager I always say it's not a Q&A it's a q&r uh question and response because we don't necessarily have the answers but we will respond uh to what you to what you bring us but we are assuming that you're here because you care about shepherding well you sheering the women and your congregations well no matter what your role is in that and and like I said we're excited that you're here to discuss that so why don't we start by you each telling a little bit about what your just your history in women's ministry your experience in ministering to women has been yeah so I guess my first um entree into women's ministry was as an intern uh for Kirk of the hills in St Louis and um that was really sweet because I was coming out of um um a context where women's ministry was done much differently and it was a very egalitarian church and um um coming into women's ministry I had you know my own doubts about um you know how did I feel about it because honestly I I I think of myself as probably the most um the person that you would least expect to lead women because I just did not like women's ministry because in my mind it self- serve women the gospel and so I just didn't like it and so um so being an intern the Lord began to get a hold of my heart and it went from I I I got to do women's ministry to I get to do women's ministry I get to serve women in this way and so the Lord got a hold of my heart in in that internship and since then I've uh had the opportunity to build women's ministry um and to assist other people in building women's Ministries and so it's been a delight for me yeah I uh first started working in at I actually first started working at my church in children's ministry which is a way you get to know a lot of women in the church and sometimes you see them in their with their tears and in their hardest moments when they're dropping that child off at the nursery at church but I I worked at my church for 10 years in um in my local church in women's ministry and you know it was just a real joy to have that season of in the local church day in and day out um just getting to talk to women getting to teach women getting to um really help our session and in by session elders and deacons um Care for Women in the church and then I work for TGC and I get to do this all the time yeah that's great and mine's similar I was on staff at a church uh well before that I helped serve in women's ministry for a long time just as a lay leader teaching and choosing curriculum and caring for women and then on staff at a church and now thinking about how women's what's happening in women's ministry in local churches around the world so it is a joy what are some ways that you have been well cared for by Ministry leaders by pastors and Shepherds and elders and and other director of women's ministry um I can say there have been so many ways first of all um I have worked with so many wonderful men Through The Years who really want to do a good job of shepherding women and so I'm going to one way that I think is something that you experience as a woman sometimes but maybe hasn't always been stated and it is the men in my life who have had a Ministry of seeing women versus watching women and so there is a big difference um in that type of ministry and so I can remember my college Pastor um David Bowen at good sheeper um when I was in college I always felt seen by him he would know my name he would ask about he would know my major I can even remember in that church I was a college student I think I had I had joined the church I remember we still had voicemail I mean a real one you press whatever that was called and I remember getting a call answering machine answer machine an answering machine that thing that came out of nowhere yeah that was back in the dark agents I can remember getting a call from my Elder saying I just want you to know we're praying for you and I'd love to know any way specifically I can be praying for you you know I was like the church is great look at what they're doing yeah I mean it was really this we see you and we want you as a member to feel really loved and in a part of this church and to compare that to a watched Ministry um I've had situations where I've felt watched um where I've had that that that a little bit like we're a little bit suspicious of you um why are you so into this ministry thing uh you know what are you doing here rather than we're so glad you're you're eager to participate in the life of the body you know we're so glad but it can be a little bit more you know are you doing everything right or maybe you even feel a little bit of pit the only time you're called is when you're in trouble a little bit of that that's what I call this watched Ministry so I think the Shepherds I've seen do it well they really see the women in their church and they seek to care for them yeah I I can think of lots of ways to just as you're saying I think one of the first ways I think about Dr Phil Douglas and being in his class and Dr Douglas would take the entire roster and he would get pictures he would have all of our pictures and he would pray for us so that when he saw us um he he knew us by name and so he was always able to engage us and so I always knew he was praying for us so that was one of the ways I just felt immensely cared for and I felt seen um I felt seen by um in particular um Courtney's dear husband is is I call him my brother um and uh Craig's my big brother um and and so we have that type of relationship that I know that um Craig will encourage me and we encourage each other um and I'm just I'm strengthened by that relationship and it really is like a sibling relationship and and I just love that um that's that's super helpful and encouraging to me and then others like for instance just pastors that I've had the privilege of serving on staff with who have seen my gifts called them out and pushed me in the back and say you should be doing more with this that has been the biggest and the richest of blessings yeah yeah just a piggyback on that I agree it was a pastor that first invited me to teach it was our pastor that said yes you should go to Seminary uh and even currently I've had recently a pastor show up to his women's retreat uh where I was teaching on a Friday night and a Saturday three sessions and he sat through the entire Retreat and took notes he was not watching he was not suspicious he he had a posture of of just partnership in the gospel and I thought man what the women in his church are seeing right now is incredibly beautiful um because they by seeing him do that will feel very welcomed and known and so yeah there's just been a lot of way isn't that beautiful I know well what are some of the best practices then you've seen and we're we've been hinting around them but what are some of the best practices that you've seen as pastors Shepherd the women in their care what are what are some of the things that they've tangibly done that have been helpful wow I think what has been really notable is when I see pastors reach out and include women in the care of women um that is just always um remarkable that is always just super helpful because there are just certain situations in which um women are you know honestly ly just they're they're better suited to care for women in certain situations and it's just more tend it's it's easier to to relay some things and to lay yourself be before a woman on some things and so to include for pastors to be sensitive enough to know that you know uh I need to leverage the women in my church to include them to care for other women um is is a is a mature and a very wise Pastor I think yeah yeah I've seen churches do this really well I I remember talking to One Pastor about it um I say especially if it's a really tender issue and honestly when a woman's going before a bunch of Elders or Rec session it's normally a very tender issue intimidating yes and I say it's for her it's like she has cancer and is going to the doctor and you know often if that's your diagnosis you take a friend with you right because yeah the doctor's The Authority the doctor's going to do your care but you need I need that friend there to remind me what theor doctor said cuz she is in deer in the headlights at that moment so it's not that if vanessa is with me she's not she's not the doctor she's not the one taking care but she's going to remind me what the doctor said so the pastors and the elders they're there they're going to care for her but this person can come alongside and remind so I just think I think that's really helpful another way I I've seen um systemically the church do this well is when the Elders of the church meet with the women's leadership team maybe two or three times a year on a regular basis and they have good conversations um where the elders are are actually saying to the women leaders in the church hey what's going on what what do yall see that we're not seeing and this is why I believe in this so strongly it's because I'm a and I think our brothers need our sisters perspective so we've actually got to get in the room together at sometimes and just have those conversations because sometimes like all the women know hey the picnic was at 3 the reason no one came is because all the children were napping you know and they can just they can just tell the elders that it wasn't that they didn't want to come it just was the timing was off and you just need to have those conversations as a family yes so that the family can all be well taken care of absolutely I've even had multiple times where pastors will have a sermon Review Committee and have women on it either before they read the sermon and talk about it ahead of time which is wisdom or afterwards and it's just having women speak into man you know it's been six weeks of football illustrations you know it's like I got your back brother like you probably ought to try another illustration um and so just just having people speak into or or some of the more difficult passages I've had uh pastors send me their sermon ahead of time and say I'm preaching on David and Beth Shea um how does this hit you and and and asking your sisters and your mothers in in the body of Christ to um to to participate in that because I agree with you I we need each other desperately um so best practices I I love that we might come back to that what are the various aspects so if you were to if somebody were you know like me a a notetaker and they want to have like what four things do I need you know what are the what are the essential aspects that I need to be thinking about as I am caring for women well I'm G let you start there Melissa the essential aspects I mean okay well let me just start I think every essential aspect um the easiest way you can have a Ministry that cares for women in your church is to have a prayerful Ministry if the elders are praying well for the whole church every member of the church um and and I and I really believe in this it is not unspiritual to communicate that I know sometimes you want to be like Oh I'm supposed to pray in my closet and not let anybody know what I'm doing and I get it I get it but it means the world when a when when you just come to a woman and say hey we were going through our prayer list this week and you were on my prayer list I just want you know um I'm lifting you up before God that's a huge thing um and I think it is is overlooked I think the basic spiritual disciplines are overlooked we would also say honestly taking the time to preach the word well to the whole congregation that also cares well for women I want my pastor to spend a lot of time in the Bible I I want I mean that is a gift to me that he spends time in research that he goes to conferences like this and gets his heart refreshed so that he can come back and refresh because the preached word is Mana for us all it's a means of Grace to us that you give to us so I mean the word and the prayer in prayer and then I think really getting your session and your elders equipped on a regular basis on how to care for the whole congregation maybe it's you go to some seminars on it but just really thinking through what is spiritual care what does it look like that continual Ed training I feel like those things are sometimes get overlooked we assume that we know how to do things and there really are people who are excellent at this and who can help us do it better so I think whether it's reading a book on it whether it's going to a conference and receiving hey how should we care well for the women in the church and then I would say also just always enlisting the help of women which we've talked about just asking for a feedback loop hey how are we doing this well what are you hearing that we're not doing well um just having those conversations I think that's I like to think of my family as a microcosm of what the church family should be looking like so that's what my husband would do how how are we doing and that's a normal conversation we should be having kind of as men and women in the church yeah and I would put a fine point on um including women um in the care of of other women have them to come alongside but don't Outsource shepherding women don't Outsource it it's it's it's it can be really tempting I think that if you've got some women who are caring really well to just kind of Silo them allow them to just do the care uh of women while the elders just care for men that's that's a that's a really unhealthy approach um it it should be a shared work it should be a shared work um and caring well for the family of God and so um making sure that women are included but that um it's not outsourced to them um I think is is really key I love that it it reminds me of so so caring for the women in your church and making sure that you know another woman is present if it's a you know we're not bringing her in by herself but then also not Outsourcing it it reminds me of when you and I were working together in St Louis the deacons at this particular Church started an annual tradition the the week of Valentine's Day they the deacons not their wives the deacons would put on a dinner for all of the widows and um unmarried and say you know just the single women in the church and sit with them and have conversations because I know a lot of my single friends have said before I mean I just I just like the perspective that my brothers can bring me sometimes I like that that particular vantage point so that's the not Outsourcing or or you and Craig you know it's just this precious friendship and and you know it's a it's a brother sister relationship but the deacons would have this dinner and then they would get to know the women and then remind them that if these women needed anything in particular if they had a somebody coming over to their house to do service work and and maybe it was an older woman who didn't feel comfortable with that or needed had some questions about I don't know if I'm being taken advantage of with my roof repair um the deacons would say we can come be there we can we can help and so we are your resource in that but that they created space for the relationships and the conversations to happen I just thought it was one of the most beautiful ways to care for the the this particular demographic of women in in our church Courtney can I can I also add I think it could also be easy that if if a woman is married you particularly name women who um are unmarried or divorced and that was a beautiful it was absolutely incredible and just beautiful to watch that Ministry I I loved that they did that it was very much family you can call on your family when you are in need of of a man to be present and so that was that was super helpful um but I would also say with married women um sometimes the if if you're not really attentive to um how contacts are being made it can just get to Elders calling the husband and so you know and and just assuming that he knows what's going on with the family and so it's hard to just care well for the entire family if you're only talking to the husband that's good and so I it it's really important I mean when I think of shepherding when I think of Jesus as the Shepherd of the sheep that's tender that's there's a there's a knowing that happens with that that you can't do through somebody you've got to know the Sheep that's so good I love that so we have named several ways that we have seen this done really well and ways that we've experienced really good care in our churches but what we want to talk about too is what are some ways that you seen damage or hurt or harm to women in the local church instead of the care and support and encouragement that we're that we're talking about and then let's don't just leave it there but also what could have been done differently in those situations that that would have turned it into a positive caring supportive um encounter one one kind of subtle one that I do want to address because I think what you just said about kind of only shepherding the men and assuming it will trickle down I actually think that can be really problematic yes um in a lot of ways but I think there's also at times just complete indifference um to what's happening in the women's ministry so that means and I think it's actually really dangerous because you know the curriculum that's being studied is never even talked about you know and so a lot of bad theology can seep in um through whatever curriculum's pick because no one's paying attention oh it doesn't it doesn't matter because the women are just doing it that's kind of like saying well half of my body it doesn't matter what I do with it you know I mean think about that you want I if I'll be honest if I stub my toe I'm like that is the worst pain in the entire world sometimes you it's just your toe and you know it's going to be okay but if half of our body isn't working we have a huge problem and so it's it's if we chose not to wash half of our body or take care of half of our body we would not like the whole body right you know so so much it affects everything and I think we have to be really careful that um I think sometimes women can be seen as oh well that's good you're doing something rather than necessary and needed every part of the body matters and so when there's this indifference sometimes it can Foster you're oh if you do something that's good but you know we really got it here um and I think that's one of those subtle ways that there could be a lack of care I think having an awareness that a self-awareness that I'm going to have bias over categories of difference so if if you know that's that's whether it's my womanness whether it's my ethnic um you know um identity over categories of difference just know that if someone is in a different category you're going to have some biases and so just being aware of that and so being softer towards the person in that area just knowing and having awareness that you are going to have bias um and so um I I've seen yeah I have seen women hurt by that because it's it's the suspicion instead of belief for what what's being said uh and so if there's no belief then there's no compassion and it just doesn't allow us to act like the body MH can I give an example um I had a woman in the church call me one time she and her husband were in a tough marriage spot it was it was honestly it was there was nothing abusive there was nothing like that it was just they had really grown not to like each other very much um and so the elders were meeting with them on a regular basis to try to help their marriage and she said one night they had kind of one of those conversations where they both told them really hard things cuz both were having issues and she said so you know they told me my hard things and they told him my hard his hard things and they were you know she said they were right for both of us she didn't have a problem with being told the hard things but then that week one of the elders called her husband to check in on him and took him to a baseball game you know just to kind of make sure he was okay and because there had been no woman in the room there was no woman to do kind of that same thing to her you know so she was left feeling like oh he's getting kind of that I know we told you a hard thing and now we're we're just going to make sure the relationship's okay and there wasn't really an appropriate way to do that for her so just making sure that even the the care is similar can be a big thing yeah that's really good Melissa so see the women uh know what's going on I think that even going back to that I've heard different people say you know read the books that that the women in your congregation are reading because there there are some books out there that uh that are shaping and forming um popular culture and it's important to to have a grasp on what what and that's as a as a woman's Ministry leader or a man in the church as a Ministry leader to know what what is shaping um and forming our our the people in our congregation and specifically the women um so what are some ways that if being seen scene is important and I would just affirm that in every way I had had a Ministry leader one time he was out the door and my office was right by the door and he he stopped and he came back and he leaned his head in and he he's a Godly wonderful man but he said to me Courtney you are doing a great job he goes I don't actually know what you're doing but I hear it's great and he walked out and I thought to be seen is huge it's it's part of my story I want to be known and it was really hurtful and he was trying to be helpful you know he's trying to be helpful so to be seen is important we're establishing that so what are some ways that women can be overlooked and what are some ways to make sure that they're not what are some ways that that we all can see the women that are in our ministry spheres yeah I think you have to I mean leaders have to really think particularly pastors have to be creative because I've been on a a staff a pastoral staff or two and to have that one-on-one with the guys and then for women not to get that same type of nurture and coaching um but I I think um pastors that I've seen do it well um I've had pastors to take me for um a walk in a very public place so that we could talk and I could get the one-on-one and so it was comfortable for him but he wasn't uh he wasn't satisfied not giving me the development that I needed from him good and so I've seen pastors just have to you know think about how to do that well or and so um yeah so I think that's part of it is just being intentional about it how do I care well for even women on my staff or you know whatever the issue is one way I've seen really helpful to enter in um is to do some training and single gendered environments so it matters a lot um sometimes when both men and women are in a classroom I mean this is just been shown um the women w a won't ask questions and so that's you know they just feel more intimidated ated in that environment so one thing we used to do at our church is every quarter we would actually have some women's training nights and we would have a topic and the pastor would come and just teach on that topic and it was always really interesting because there were a lot more questions there was a lot more interaction and it was a great way really appropriate way for the pastor to invest in the women in his church to get feedback to hear their questions because you know what they're asking tells you a lot you and so it was this wonderful kind of interaction I also saw um we we used to do Outreach Bible studies in all these different neighborhoods my girlfriends and I would do and here here's what was happening we were getting asked some theological curveballs because these women had never studied the Bible before and so we started saying we're going to hold all these questions and then every semester we brought a pastor in and we did ask the pastor to and so it was a great way these women wouldn't go to our church but we brought the pastor to them and and our pastors actually loved this I mean they said it was like their favorite thing and it was so sweet so they would come in and it actually made these women then feel more comfortable going to the church because the pastor had come to them first but the pastor come in and he get all these curve well how could Eden be perfect if you could sin I remember that being a long discussion you know I'm like have at it here you go we let the pastor handle that you whatever and so it was just it was so great and then they get to see a little bit of what we're doing and so let me say this to the women in the room because there are a lot of women in here be willing to ask for these things um sometimes it's they're very willing but they don't you know sometimes even even the pastors don't want to overstep balance to say hey we'd love for you to come do this so think about ways how can you get men and the women in the same room and maybe invite your pastor into something that would be really helpful and sometimes theyve just simply not thought about it yeah yeah I mean and so many of them would love to engage in that discussion if they knew it was a need yes yeah that's right and I would just add the you know the same thing that we know somebody it's time and money right time and money it's always time and money so I think when somebody is willing to invest in you with their time and their resources you know that you've been seen and that you're valued and so showing up at the Bible study being willing to have the conversations but when a church is willing to budget for women's training whether that is sending a woman to Seminary or whether it's having her do one of our cohorts or or sending her to a conference a group of women or saying this is important enough that we're going to our church is going to fund five women going to this training event whatever it is um that really speaks volumes to women and then and then identifying knowing the women well enough to identify which ones are ready to go and they're they're eager to maybe learn how to teach or they're eager to learn how to um how to participate in a mercy Ministry or whatever it is um are they being seen and prioritized through the calendar and the budget so we wanted to open up for question really practically on that though uh we we're going to be totally biased here and say I mean the best place they should come is next summer to tgcw 24 that's right if you really love the women the women in your exactly so if you love them a budget to help them get here next summer we're actually going to be talking about that in the other room and just a little bit yep G and 20th through 22nd but we actually are really excited about it because the whole purpose the women's initiatives exists to Resource women in the local church it's why it's why we exist at the Gospel Coalition and so as Ministry leaders in your local context we are here to think of ways to Resource you so it's why we have produced these cohorts it's why we you know write the books or the Articles and it's why we put on the conference and as we think about the content of the conference we're we're particularly thinking about ways that we can equip and train women for Ministry in their local church and in their local context so we even though it's self- serving to say it we really do mean it it's a it's a place that if your church could send a group of women uh we do prayerfully work very hard at trying to have it be a place where they will go home encouraged and equipped um so we would love to have them so any before we open it up to questions is there any last piece of just thought or advice or wisdom or encouragement that you would offer as we we seek to Steward this one half of the body um well and that can be particularly challenging in our context one of the things I've seen that has been well two things that I've seen that has been immensely encouraging from pastors for me is to to know what's going on with women and their development in your church enough that you're able to promote it y you to to know it well enough to know to be able to promote it to say that this is what's going on um in women's ministry and this is how we're seeing fruit from that that is so much more powerful than a woman standing in saying that it's really powerful to hear a pastor say that the other one is imitation i' I've um started um mentoring initiatives in a church that have taken off in a in a manner that I've had a pastor to come and say now show us how to do this for men and so to be a part of the planning so that and to think and to rethink it and redesign it such that we could do something that gave us some you know some parody some you know some equality well you know on both sides well men and women and to teach and train and encourage and to Mentor uh the whole church in that way and so that's been really encouraging so uh affirm well enough to to be able to say come and help us think about how to create what you've created that's also really I think encouraging yeah I've had some Pastors in my local area actually call me up and say hey could we get lunch and I could just pick your brain about women's ministry I've done it with a lot of Church Plant leaders um and that just meant so much I was kind of like oh wow you're starting your church plant already thinking about how to do women Ministry and that like spoke volumes to me um I had I had I sat down with three pastors just a month ago because they were getting ready to hire um a woman on staff for the first time in their church and they sent me the job description and they said would you mind looking over it and tell us you know what you think about it and I looked over it and I was like this is like four women's job like had that discussion before whatever and so it was it was really helpful I said you know you want her to be your executive Pastor your teaching pastor and your care P you know and it was just like they were like oh we hadn't even really we were expecting of her way more than we might expect of anyone pastor and so and it was easy for me to say it because I I wasn't in the game so to speak I was just an outside consultant coming in so sometimes it's just nice to get someone on the outside to look in for you with some perspective and be able to help I meet with a lot of the guys that we went to Seminary with and you know it's just so sweet to be able to speak into it and they just ask good questions and it's just it's honoring but it's it's exciting and it's partnership and and I love it so um we would love to see what's on what's on your minds and again it's not going to be answers it'll be a response but we would love to talk about it and if we look a little like we don't understand what's being said sometimes it's hard to hear from the mic so we'll see how this goes we we're going to be like listening this thank you so much this has been awesome your comment about going on the one-on-one walk was kind of an appropriate and intentional way for a pastor to invest in you as a staff member um kind of pivoting that thought into pastor's interactions with just women throughout the church and the way they communicate with women at the church I think there may be a hyper caution can I text this person can I so fostering that kind of communication being both appropriate and yet intentional but for people who aren't staff who they're not with on a day-to-day basis any thoughts or on or advice for for pastor who are trying to kind of engage that appropriate but intentional I can say it's not easy um I I think it's a very great question and I and I I would certainly say it's not easy and you're trying to walk a fine line between caring well for the Sheep because that involves some intimacy and some knowing but also some accountability such that um you're caring well for the Sheep by and and staying above reproach right and so I think that is definitely it's it's prayer every time time um it is definitely a wisdom question um and and so I don't know I think it it certainly takes uh people smarter than I am but people are in your circle and maybe that's something that your staff and your leadership team helps you to think for but I think you don't get to just you know uh phone it in and not care for women but also you don't get to not have accountability and so it's finding how those two fit together and how that works for your environment yeah I don't know that I have anything prescriptive for everyone if I could just say one thing on how to think through and I do not want to jump into a hornet's nest with the Billy Graham rule um but if I could just say one way to think about that is to remember Billy Graham was a traveling evangelist he was actually not a pastor of a flock so just as you're thinking through rules and how to Think Through it's helpful sometimes to think if you're a pastor of a flock I mean it made a a lot of his rules made a lot of sense when you're traveling the country and you want to look appropriate in a lot of spheres but we do have to find ways you know and here's what I will say about like email and texting and things like that I just think it's helpful to remember um those are all recorded So if you do anything inappropriate in that way there's a record of it I mean one digital footprint is is fierce yeah yeah I mean it's so so I think there's natural accountability you know so to me if you need to email a woman about the church picnic or whatever I mean there's a record of what you talked about actually oneon-one there's no record of what you talked about so I actually think of email and texting as actually safer in some ways of a means of communication just because here it is this is what we said to one another and so just as you're thinking through ways um you I think it's totally appropriate to send an email to every woman in your flock or however you do it and saying hey I'm praying for this for you this week how can I pray for you you that to me is okay everyone has to make their own decisions are justs to think it but we've also heard from women that you know it's it can be painful when um it's an email or a text and and the pastor Elder's wife is included on that you know you feel like oh that's just you know it's not than I you know it's like what why did that happen like why did I not feel safe in that or you know so there's ways to to um maybe move towards healthy brother sister mother son father daugh you know relationships the way the Bible talks about the way we're supposed to relate to each other um okay we're going to go back and forth yeah sorry yeah I was just going to say any rule that does not allow a a pastor to Shepherd a woman well uh or doesn't allow um a pastor to have a conversation with his flock member I don't know I'm going to say that that's not a a Biblical construct uh I don't yeah I I'm going to say that that's not biblical I don't know if this might okay here we go so Vanessa and Melissa and Courtney thank you so much for taking the time uh to share with us and when you just opened up today some of these I have three quick questions they could be yes or no answers some takeaways that I took just from the opening of the session one the fact that you're taking questions from us my takeaway is in women's ministry it seems that women like to have everyone involved would that be correct or not probably depends on the leadership sty personality right you know all right so thank you for that and then the response not a Q&A um I think this is a direct uh could be a direct or an indirect that women are don't want mansplaining don't want man mansplaining that's that is a true statement that is a true statement right there every woman in the agrees with that one thank you for sharing what your uh backgrounds were uh does this give Credence that women want to be recognized as qualified to do ministry and sharing your backgrounds so thank you y would you agree with that oh why we did those things yeah so I would say that we gave our backgrounds because you you need to know what that we've had some experience in this that we've actually lived in this we actually didn't talk about academic credentials or anything like that so so I think we were really just saying what what why are we up here what have we done to even have any experience in this um the q&r is just something that I feel deeply um I don't like the the the power Dynamic that can that can happen with especially in a room like this where we're doing the predominance of the talking that we're the experts and that's just not true we're all we're all learning together and so the q&r is just something that I've become more passionate about in my own that I'm not the answer person I'm not the expert um so yeah so that would be okay thank you thank you thanks for asking that um so our churches are very very small church so about 40 50 on on average on Sunday and that's including kids um so we don't really at this moment have a women's ministry want to develop that right uh certainly do uh but until we can get the training done for the women and that kind of thing and and I've yet to find anybody that says yeah I want to do that um so but um so you're talking about the quarterly trainings uh where the pastor would come in and just you know on a quarterly basis or what have you and and and do that kind of thing I guess my question is simply how long how long are those quarterly trainings like just is it just a one night thing or is this like a successive nights or um or like successive weeks for like a month or so I mean night training or was it a yeah I would actually me I'm sorry I just have one more part that towards women's issues or towards anything like just anything in general that's a great question so it was actually toward anything um so we would actually meet my my pastor and I when I worked on staff we'd meet once a month but we would plan out the whole year we'd have four a year so quarterly because really honestly it was in the evening that's all people wanted to come to anyway um and it we would pick the topic so I remember one time we discernment and we actually picked a really popular women's book and um we took a chapter a popular women's book that had a lot of really bad theology actually my pastor when he read it could not believe it he was like people people publish this in the Christian space you know and and you and I was like yes and so and actually what he did he didn't he didn't go through line by line we had the women read it and we had them figure out you know what was wrong with it and then he taught on how do we how do we do discernment and different things like that so we would do different topics it could be you and it was it was different every year it could be evangelism hey how do you share your faith well um so it was it was a lot of different basic spiritual discipline topics and and things like that and it just for one night yeah it was just one night two hours we'd have you know of course we'd have snacks and goodies and all that the ministry snack Ministry and and yeah we would we would do that and then um it was a great time of we'd have Fellowship time and then he so we also gave him interaction time with the women just the women in the room and then we would do whatever the training was on so thanks for asking yeah um would you all be willing to share about a time maybe you have hurt somebody in your flock and how you went about making men's apologizing maybe you were just misunderstood but I'd love some guidance on that oh that's great so as as a woman in Ministry when you've been the one to hurt I have lots of examples of that so that's what I was thinking which example exactly I know Vanessa is not allowed to answer this one um well it was this time Courtney sorry I mean I'm sure this is going to be really hard to believe but I could be a little bit of a bulll in a china shop and so um you know I've got an idea and by goly you know it's we're going to get the idea done and so I I can hurt people in the process and so when that becomes to it comes to my attention or I become aware of it um just move towards the person immediately immediately I mean that's that's I've said this in so many different contexts but the gospel always moves towards Brokenness and and hurt right that's that's the direction of the Gospel so whenever there is hurt or Brokenness you just move towards it in humility and honesty and questions and repentance and and praying for restoration and conversation I mean it's yeah I I think every single time can I share is it me what time Courtney hurt you can I share um no I'm thinking of gather and grow and the reason this would be hard to share because you can kind of come off as the hero so I'm going to share it about her um you went to our the whole women's team after that event and I think you I think you said you had like a negative attitude just you know it's hard when you're planning some of these events we we we're always they're always hard um there's always stuff that goes on and what I was so impressed that Courtney did as a leader is she went to her whole team and she said I need to apologize to you all and I was just like oh my goodness what she is teaching them in this moment is more formative than anything else that probably happened this weekend because you were just so humble and you went before then you're like I'm just I I I'm checking myself I'm sorry I did the you know and it was it it was something that easily could have been overlooked I mean yeah we were just like oh we're all stressed or whatever and you were just most of my Ministry has occurred through repentance just so you know that I'm sorry and I probably shouldn't have shared that but not true it was so beautiful to see I hope please don't please afterwards she's going to confront me I'm she have to we have to go make an announcement together so we'll see how well we're actually know yeah okay so I'm just looking for the last one um so I think the the the last big one uh was when I had just moved to New York I had a a couple uh a lady who um was having some really real marital issues um the same day it was um the celebration my daughter was about to leave town and get ready to head for college and um and so it was just it was a lot going on and I'm still learning how to navigate the city and so I didn't really know how to get to from where I was meeting this lady who really needed my full full time in my attention and and to get to my daughter's thing on time cuz I had given my word that I would be there uh and and so I I was just feeling pressed and so what I generally do in those type of situations is I sit down and I'll tell the person I'm setting my alarm because I want to give you my full attention for this many minutes but when my alarm sounds I have a quick exit and I failed to do that in my haste and so um my lift was coming and and I had to get to my next thing and she was kind of in her story in a place where it wasn't convenient to leave uh and I had kind of delayed and delayed and delayed and um and so I wasn't fully present and I just I felt horrible about it forever but anyway so um she stormed out she was really upset with me and as as she should have been and uh and so I pursued her I pursued her I mean I would I would text um and and she would have she wouldn't respond she wouldn't respond and it was okay okay but I would continue regularly to text and would say I'm praying and would follow up and and follow up and and and when something like that happens that person becomes your prayer assignment too because well one just confession and repentance but also um they become your assignment that they don't become hardened by you know what you've done to them you know the pain you've you inflicted and so but anyway long story short over some it took months but I kept pursuing her and she finally came around when she needed to talk uh and and so I would just say man Jesus pursues us like crazy and so you got to be willing to when you hurt people you got to be willing to say I'm sorry and in in a meaningful way uh and to keep pursuing them yeah that's what I would say thank you that was very helpful yeah thanks we're we're going to try we try so hard not to hurt God's people but we do it uh similar line of thinking so I'm going to ask this for my husband cuz I'm the pastor's wife and I'm traumatized by conflict so I don't think I can answer him on how to handle this but what do you do if you find out there is something being taught in women's ministry that's not okay how do you approach that woman with love because I think I would cry no matter what he told me if I was the one in that position but how do you handle that with Grace and love of I don't like this what you're teaching and I don't want you to teach this anymore how do you handle can can I acknowledge that um I think that you create a culture where you're having those conversations all the time so that it's not a big scary conversation and so if you have a culture of you're already talking about what's going on in women's ministry then there is no I found out this was happening it's you know this is what's happening in women's ministry because we talked about it and so so it's um it's having building a culture that allows you to have those regular check-ins such that you you're not out there you know that there's you know you're not out there on your own doing your own thing but you've got a relationship and those conversations are happening so starting at Ground Zero basically I'm sorry so starting at Ground Zero basically yeah it's it's it's building I think building a culture of that yeah yeah I think that's part of pastoral oversight is knowing what's happening in the different and and having a say on the front end right like bring I I don't think I ever put a curriculum before we still we run everything past leadership and um just yeah we want we want different we need our V but yeah have have them have him speak into it on the front end um is you know probably the long-term solution and if yeah and if you're a women's leader just even for your own covering make sure you're run it by someone even you know if if you're trained in it you know Seminary train whatever still run it by someone and and get leadership's approval uh have them to speak into it or maybe they're able to even add something or enhance it as this you know as a team as a as a shared approach to caring for the Sheep yeah and that models that we need each other absolutely you know so it's like hey I'd love your eyes on this yeah I mean that's just a good model both ways for us to be asking them and and actually you know really pulling at them to be involved in what we're um that's a good thing cuz our our ministry to women is better when it's done with men and I think Men's Ministry to men has done better when it's done with women AB that's all involved absolutely thank you yeah yeah hello hi short I'm not sure if you can hear me there so we are in a great congregation where the male male um personal mentorship is exploding oh great it's beautiful beautiful to see and they're being trained up and sent out but the female personal mentorship is a little bit lacking and so could you speak I think you spoke a little you mentioned a mentorship initiative um could you give us maybe some more details vision for like what that looks like how do you go forward and yeah I would just beate that I would be doing a cheap imitation of Melissa Krueger so who who wrote growing together so I'm going to I'm GNA I'm going to pitch that one to Melissa um this was a huge thing for my heart when I came into women's ministry and it took me three or four years to to finally actually get to implement something that could work how do you connect women how do you do discipleship for women in the local church um and oh I want to just direct you it's so in there's so much but I would just say try to find ways to connect older and younger women um and I would try to connect them seasonly do you have older women in your church cuz some Churches don't so I say that a great many but right now the older women I think mainly see their selves in a capacity of like a large Bible study but as far as that life on life personal kind of thing it's more the youngers and the youngers that like you know the new moms teaching the new moms so maybe not so much the season or you know widows even teaching the younger well here's my idea in that situation um I would I I just always warn against saying to an older woman hey will you Mentor me yeah that question for us all is like oh dear what does she want from me and I'm terrified yeah because it's like what does that mean are we linked for the rest of our lives I don't know um and so what I what what I like to the the question I think that's really wise to ask is could we get coffee and could I ask you these three specific questions that's fair to the older woman and it's less overwhelming um I have sat at coffee with people for 3 hours and I leave and I'm like I don't know why we were here I don't know what she wanted to talk to me about and I'm scared I I'm completely scared I failed her I have no idea why we were here but when a woman comes to me and says hey I really want to talk to you about how you mothered in the young years um can I ask you these questions I am there and I'm like okay yes let's do it I have an hour and a half let's let's do it so I think on the younger woman being creative and how you ask for that is a really helpful thing I also think it's good to say hey there are four of us we really want to be discipled in prayer will you walk through this book with us for nine months once a month on Tuesday evening at 7 p.m. we will start at 7 we will end at 9: we will be there we will have done our homework we will be on time will you do that for us I think they will say yes I really do um and so coming with what you need for spiritual growth I think really can help but so so I I'm kind of I'm very taipe and so I got that part but like the other sisters in the church like I got my questions always ready you know and I'm always looking for people but like my other sisters in the church who maybe don't know how to ask those questions like do I talk to our pastors and see I'm sure our pastors they're so thoughtful and um I'm sure they're just waiting for somebody else to really like they like for their people to do the work they don't want to be the pastors always doing the work for the people and so um like do I talk to them do I how do I get the other because I don't think I don't think all the younger moms or younger ladies always know what they don't know they don't know that they even need it maybe they think that getting alongside another you know 19-year old girl is enough and that's good in its own way but we need those who are seasoned in the faith and in life and how got to Resource them you got to give them the structure to do it so pick up a book like growing together or have a Saturday afternoon where you say hey this can look a lot of different ways but let's put some parameters on it and you know and and deci just Define it equip them give them resources and um and and then a compelling reason biblically on why you know we need to be doing life on Life Ministry with each other and so so one of the things that I did just as a as a as a as a quick thing um was you got to feed people I keep telling you about this ministry of of snacks so we so we would have a we would seriously I would have a dinner and I would I invited every woman in our church and our church is very young so we've got some older um Saints but we are we're a very young Church um but inviting every woman to come to dinner and uh and so in that time trying to give some structure to what what mentorship could look like and a lot of the principles were from growing together but to say to try to dispel all of the fears that people are going to bring about U mentoring you know I got a past um or you know what do you want from me you know and and and so trying to uh anticipate what some of those questions are and teach to that and then also to teach to you know Mente tees and then and and then to also set the expectation that there won't be enough older women to younger women and in those cases we'll do prayer Partnerships and we'll be responsible for each other's discipleship we'll be accountability partners and help each other grow and so you know so something like that might be a way to get you going that's good thank you yeah well I'm actually going through growing together with an older woman and then also with a small group of girls I lead our young adult women's ministry at our church and so this group is mostly new Believers they're single lower 20s and so a lot of them through that the chapter about the local church we did a spiritual gifts assessment and just encourag them to kind of plug in where their gifting is a lot of them actually have the spiritual gift of shepherding and so what are some good opportunities to provide provide young adult women in the church with the gift of of shepherding particularly if they are not on Church staff that's good it's really good um I mean I think shepher and can one take a lot of different viewpoints I mean in some ways I mean it can be just a Ministry of care um so es I think of a younger woman you know in the church there're always one younger women to be shepherding so I love the 20s somethings in my church who have invested in my 16-year-old daughter it means so much to me like I have this one girl who's now been taking my daughter lunch she's just been caretaking my daughter and I say thank you because you know sometimes she does not want to listen to me she want to be shephered by me but but these these women um who are pouring back in it means it means so much but but I also think can I just say this to every all of us in the church our pastors are really discouraged um and shepherding can go upward and what I mean by that is maybe it's hey let's make cookies for our pastoral team and take them in like you know we can Shepherd that way we can you can text or email or whatever way appropriate your pastor and say Hey I want to pray for our church well prayer is shepherding you know I want to do that so I think even be creative about how can I love this church well even holistically because I think prayer is something that everyone can do if you're you know 5 years old old in the church and it's a shepherding Ministry or if you're you know 88 in the church we canot do that we are a minute over but you have been standing there so we want to hear it last question we want to hear it I have a great women's leadership team for a women's ministry they're getting to an age where they're looking for younger leadership to step up and everyone seems maxed out any wisdom yes this is like my I love this you have to create space at the table we cannot we cannot keep the leadership in a certain age demographic and then think why are the younger women not showing up they need a seat at the table they need to be on the teaching team with a lot of feedback they need to be in the decision- making we need to be saying why is nobody coming to the Retreats anymore why is nobody coming to the Bible studies anymore and our our 20-year-old sisters are going to have a lot of wisdom on that and so give whatever demographic is missing from any part of your women's ministry look and see are they at the table and and create a space for him there that's great closing wisdom okay thank you all so [Music] much