Hope and Help for Women’s Ministry | Word First

so I want to ask each of you a question and I'm not sure where I'm supposed to start we may have talked about where I was supposed to start but I this is just a personal question who or maybe what book has made you want to be a better Theologian Nancy well I I think back to uh my college days and I can remember the first assignment in Bible doctrines class and it's interesting to think about now that I do these biblical theology workshops because really he was sending me uh the assignment was to write a paper on the glory of God using no nothing other than the Bible and so essentially he was sending me to search out the glory of God in the scriptures and that bible college professor and even that assignment itself I think has sent me on a on a theological Pursuit um I got a job right out of college working in Christian publishing so I was working with a lot of authors and their materials some good and some maybe not so sound and so I think that drove me um to always be trying to not only learn how to communicate the truth but figure out the nuances uh between what really aligns with the scriptures and what doesn't um you know probably though a very significant experience was the loss of my children in that two of my children have died I have a living son also but you know I just remember so clearly after my daughter died going back to the Bible and at that point what I was in my late 30s mid-30s and I'd studied the bible really my whole life but everything sounded different um and and I felt like in many ways I had to go back to kindergarten to under really understand the Bible I read it all through that lens and there were things that didn't make sense and so those are some influences on me that have caused me to want to be understand more clearly who God is and what he's doing in the world which is what I would say what theology is good Lee you have been extensively involved in the in fact you started our teaching women to teach initiative at RTS Orlando what who who's the influence on you what what have been the things that poured into you that made you want to pour into other people well you mentioned your mom and I would say that uh when I had kids it was my kids who really um drove me to think more deeply about Theology and what was true um I wasn't raised in a Christian home so I hadn't had a mom as a conversation partner in that way so um I really wanted to be able to be that for my kids but what I realized as they got older the questions got harder and I didn't want to just tell them what to believe although that's important but I also wanted to be sure I could explain to them why and how how I got to that conclusion where that was in the Bible why we would interpret it this way and so I I didn't want to just give the an answer I wanted to give the context or the backdrop for the answer and um that just became like I said as they got older more challenging um my middle son was diagnosed with cancer when he was 21 and so that was just an example of a time when my child was driving me to be you know a better Communicator of what the truth was um because he had as you can imagine a lot of questions a lot of questions so I would say primarily my kids um but then I also had a mentor when I was a young pastor's wife um a woman named Betty Taylor who just modeled what it looked like to pour into younger women in the church K Arthur had actually mentored her through precept and um my husband's first church was in Chattanooga so K Arthur had had of course a huge influence there and it was it's just so interesting to me to see this generational um you know passing down of a desire to know Theology and be a better Theologian it's great Melissa why did you want to become a better Theologian is there a person or persons or a and some ways it was similar to what you all said in this sense um when I started college as a freshman my brother had encouraged me actually to join a sority um to be a light there he said I want you to go in there and I want you to share your faith with people he knew me he knew I love the Lord and he was like you're going to just be in a Christian huddle all during college you know you know he's like this would be good and I realized as I was having conversations with non-christians my answers weren't good enough you know so you're having you know the best thing about evangelism is you realize your own faith gets challenged and I realize if I want to if I'm and and this is true if I'm going to base my life on this I better have a good reason and in the process I also met this guy um and his name's Mike and and I watched him and he would go up on Franklin Street which was the main street in our in our college town and he every Friday night would spend his Friday night sharing the gospel with people and I watched what drove his theology was his love for people and he knew how to give an answer that I didn't know how to give and I've watched him do this through our whole marriage and I I'm always amazed it is actually compassion for the loss that makes us want to know what we believe so we can share our faith with them in a way that hits whomever they are wherever they are whatever what what what is keeping you from belief I want to understand I want to be able to tell you about this God I have to know this God if I'm going to tell you about him and then you know it's the kid thing I can remember when my 5 old Emma she's at this conference she fell off her bike and this was her theological question if God knows everything we had Tau her God knows everything God can do everything why did he let me fall off my bike okay this is a problem of evil for a 5-year-old how to answer that and so these are the things that drove me I was like it matters what I know and my ability to actually love because we it's loving to be able to share god with people people in a theologically thoughtful way that's good now I I I want everybody to kind of Pile in on these questions but I'll start off with I'll I'll just start right back with Melissa let's say you say what you've just said to somebody you're in a you're in a group you're in a church or whatever and a woman says back to you I don't really need to know theology uh I I'm not I don't want to be a pastor I don't want to be a Bible teacher what do you say yeah yeah I mean in a lot of ways what I just said in the sense of um the study of God is not something it's a oneand done you know I think sometimes we like oh and I think this can actually be particularly true in our reform Community sometimes you think oh I have all the right answers so I've kind of checked the box I make it a habit of reading scripture in a year on a regular basis and you'all every time I'm struck by how much I don't know about God and how every time I'm challenged in ways that I need to be challenged my heart is challenged and so the study of God that's all theology is to me is the pursuit of God and if this is a relationship this is a relationship that changes me in it and so I guess I just want to say that's like kind of saying well I don't really want to eat ice cream you know I don't want to enjoy life that's good okay well if you don't want to enjoy life well then don't study theology right but this is the best subject this is the subject of Eternity one one famous Theologian defined theology as the science of living blessedly Ever After so if you don't want to live blessedly Ever After ah scrap biology how about Lee do you hear this every once in a while I I do and when people say it I think they don't actually understand what theology is it's a Mis to say you don't need it is a misunderstanding of what it is um um you know as I understand theology it's um you know theology tells us what's true and today more than ever you know we need not only to know what's true but in my own life I need to be reminded of what's true um because of the sin in my own life and the messages that the world gives us I need to be reminded over and over and over about what's true um so one of my old theology professors said that theology is wisdom about God and all things in relation to God and when you know when you understand that theology is wisdom and the source of truth then no one can say they don't need that so I try to start by if somebody says that saying let me tell you what theology actually is and then I think people realize oh everybody needs to know what's true that's good that's good Nancy well for one thing I mean as soon as you look at your little child and you sing teach them to sing Jesus loves me this I know you're doing theology whether or not you know it or not because the big well who who is Jesus and what what does that love look like and why do you say he loves you in what way does he love you has he singled you out to love and how do you know that and so um so theology can is is the basis for any talk about God but also I just think um you know what what is what is that great command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart soul mind and strength and you know if if I said to you I I love my husband but I don't I don't really want to know him I mean like it makes no sense um knowing him yes in in is the basis yes and the substance and the joy uh that love flourishes as I know him and I would say uh I if the if what God has called us to is to love the Lord well we've got to know him and that's simply what theology is and and to to flip that around you know if a man says I want to love you but I'm not interested in knowing anything about what you think or what you like or you know I don't want to listen to you want to talk to you I mean probably that relationship's going nowhere run I hope I hope it's going nowhere right so if if we want to know God and we're told that we're made to know God and one of the great blessings of the New Covenant is they all know me from the greatest to least then you need to know about God and and the thing about God is you can only know what he reveals about himself we can relate to that even at a at a at a personal relationship level you know I I I tell guys when they're getting married you think that you have her heart but actually what you have is a chance to have her heart and and so it it takes an investment and then she has to disclose herself to you and it's the same thing with God God discloses himself to us I mean how do you know God he's infinite we're finite only as he discloses himself so theology just paying attention to God's self-disclosure and and and trying to learn what God says about himself so that we know him and I I think it's important for us to realize that Dimension to our spiritual life is dependent upon theology it doesn't mean that you have to pursue academic theology Etc but all of us are theologians the only question is are you a good one or a bad one you know are you are is your is your thinking aligned with the Bible about what God has revealed in the Bible or not um H you all have probably seen leaders that have done a good job of encouraging the theological growth of women in their church and then some folks who probably neglected that um how how would you encourage people in leadership in Bible believing local churches to encourage their women to grow theologically well uh when pastors ask me that one one thing I I ask them about is um you know they probably have books they're reading but maybe they only talk to their Elders about the books they're reading and discuss and so I think the most important thing is interact with your women like they have a heart and mind for theology uh and and women we we respond to that we respond being treated like we have a heart and brain for Theology and so what is that going to look like so that's going to look like um asking her what have you been reading lately or oh you're you're helping lead the Women's Bible study on Mark what commentaries are using which ones are you finding helpful I mean that's the way you would likely interact with a with a ale leader in your church so do that with encourage that and along with that um when she says she's reading say them oh I I think I'll read that I'd like to read that and then let's discuss it um that's a way to both demonstrate that you really value her theological thinking and development and and and and turn that into a conversation that's encouraging to her that's good Lee how about how do how do we encourage this um I would say that one way that we uh have typically chosen to motivate women towards theology is by emphasizing application and one of the things that I experienced at RTS as a student was um pointing people to our the ultimate reason for theology um the ultimate purpose of theology um you of course know the famous John John frame quote that theology is the applic of scripture to all of life um which is of course true um but my other theology Professor Scott Swain would always remind us that theology doesn't just serve practical ends um it also serves the ultimate end and you know um in John 17 Jesus in his in the high Priestly prayer um he says this is eternal life that they may know you the only truth true God and that you know theology actually doesn't just serve us practically but it It prepares us for our chief end which of course is to glorify God and enjoy him forever so that was something to me that was really an aha because I'd always been challenged theologically because I needed to know things for their application but when I went to RTS I was challenged at knowing God isn't just about application it's about what I'm made for and my ultimate purpose that's good Melissa um I I this is a little bit of a different answer but I do think how we think about Christian education in the church really matters um I think it is right and good for a pastor to stand up and and I use this term I don't mean that this is what he's doing and use the lecture style of teaching when he gives a sermon but all week the way people actually learn best so basic pedagogy like had the learning triangle is when they start interacting with the material it can be visually it can be auditory it can be discussion um and then the best way you actually learn something when I was a teacher I taught high school math the best way my kids Learned was when they started to teach someone else so one of the best ways we can grow theologically is actually to teach ourselves and so this is actually encouragement for both men and women leaders in the church it's really tempting if you're in charge of your women's ministry to always pick a curriculum that doesn't require a lot of work um if we don't work we will never grow and I know you women can work hard because I see people at the gym and they are doing really y doing box jumps and you're doing all these things and you're running marathons and you're doing hard things and so I think we have to say we can do hard hard things as women and we can actually and I'm not against curriculums I've done teaching curriculums but it's some point we've got to stop borrowing from others and if it's 12 women you can do this you can you will only grow in your teaching by actually teaching you cannot just come to all of our workshops a million times and learn how to teach step up to the plate do it if it's oneon-one do it you will grow theologically the most you start pouring out to others NC you know Lian as you as we talk about how to encourage women theologically I think one of the biggest one of the greatest encouragers of women theology is someone we're sitting here with which is Li and dunan I mean you are a great you have encouraged me over and over again even before I met you you tweeted something about me that deeply encourage me so thank you for that and and so you and as ah head of a of this Seminary organization you you lead by example in that regard but I'd just like to turn the question on you you've ask us how to develop so I wonder as you train yeah men many of whom are very awkward with women or or unsure about how some of they're young men some situations right and they're going to be interacting with all these women they don't know what they're going to do how do you encourage men heading into Ministry to encourage theological development women you know at the church level for 17 years when I was the pastor at First Presbyterian Church in Jackson it had a strong tradition of teaching women in the church which really went all the way back to Jean Patterson who was the wife of the pastor there in the late 1960s through the 1970s she was an outstanding Bible teacher she did basically expository Bible teaching teaching four women in the congregation had 600 women coming from churches all over the city a lot of people being converted in the Bible studies a lot of people getting excited about the Bible for the first time and so I had that Tradition at first PR but my director of Christian education was Donna dos and and Donna invited Nancy to come teach at First Press Donna was really investing herself in the women in in that the that we had number of gifted women that were good at Bible teaching and they had carried on this Legacy that went all the way back to Jee Patterson but Donna would invite me to come do the teacher training every year before the semester Bible study started and it it she was queuing me up to and all I had to do was show up teach the Bible to the to the women that were going to be teaching the Bible to the women and they felt like wow the pastor cares about what we're doing you know and so it thank God for women that are involved in that part of the administration of the church's Ministry that can queue your pastors up all they have to do is just show up and encourage the people that are doing and and they know the pastor actually cares about this and then what I try to tell the guys is you could not find a greater Ally in the church than theologically trained women I mean my mom was I watched my mom support our pastors growing up and because of her knowledge she was a greater support to our pastors growing up she's probably a better encourage of her of his sermons than anybody she was really listening and processing comment intelligently and specifically and theologically on things that he was doing absolutely and so I I just I I I try to tell the guys this is something you want to invest in because especially for those of us who were committed to a vision of complimentarity in relationships between men and women I tell my guys you've you've got to be seen as the person who values most the women of your congregation because the world is saying they don't really value you and and you know unless you follow you know this other view of how men and women ought to really They Don't Really value well we we have to actually disprove that by the way we relate to one another and by the way we value one another and so that's one of the things that I tell the guys in seminary you won't get more supportive folks in your church and and the fact of the matter is it's often easier to get the women of the congregation interested in theology men have to be weaned off of other other advocations okay and there there's certain things that are built in I I think really into the hardwiring of women's lives that make them they're more ready to jump into this kind of deep rich study and I have to do more persuading but but I one of the things I can then say to the men at first prayers it was certainly true I said men if you're not studying your bible let me tell you I know 600 women who are here and you know so if you you better be in there studying your because they need to be able to respect you um and um so I those are some of the things Nancy that's a that's a great question and for you Pastors in the room we do need to be thinking about this as as we make uh for this um you you we've mentioned the the sort of the women's ministry that was sort of aimed at the applicational or the Practical let me do a sort of a of a a different kind of angle it used to be that women who were interested in growing theologically primarily leaned into their pastors or denominational seminaries as resources today there are a lot of voices speaking into the theological development of women is that a good thing is that a bad thing Melissa let's start with you it's a complicated thing yeah maybe that's a way to say it because it means it's amazing the resources we have now right I mean I just want to tell you you can go on the Gospel Coalition website and you can learn all about ancient Ephesus for free yeah so when you're it can age your Bible reading you so so the internet has lots of great things that it offers us that we would have spent thousands of dollars to get those commentaries you know I mean so it's it's really amazing what we have but we also have women you know I'm going to say women because this is primarily a female audience who are selling you a false theology out there and they are persuasive I read one book by a woman and it was under the Christian Living category and I read it and I I was like this is the most Works based book it was a bestseller and it was telling you your life is up to you and it was it was shrouded in so get up and do it and I realized I was like this is the gospel of self-help and it and it was just selling off you know it was just selling and selling and selling and it it broke my heart because we're not Discerning enough cuz we're not in our Bibles enough to say this is anti-gospel and it is killing us as women so it's going to get you on a bad theology is going to get you on a trajectory that will wear you out will exhaust you and will steal life from you God will fill you fulfill you and he will always lead you in Paths of righteousness that are life and goodness and so we need less time on our phones looking at people who maybe look perfect and are selling you all this stuff we need time in our in the word listening to Jesus and that that just cannot be replaced and so I'm not saying be off the internet but I'm just saying you have to be in the word it will be it will guard you for whatever places you go sorry that was my little passion straight yeah Sor yeah sorry straight um Lee well and bad theology isn't just on the internet yeah that's right you know it's it's also on podcasts and it's in books and I can remember we had a situation at church you know women will recommend books to other women and um that's often how bad theology gets passed around and um there was a book that an influential woman in our church had read and she was encouraging other people to read it I hadn't read it yet but there was kind of a push to oh this is this should be a book study at church for the next fall and so I picked it up and started reading it chapter 1 okay chapter 2 okay chapter 3 okay they're calling they're putting pressure on me to say you know thumbs up let's do it and I hadn't finished the book yet and I got to chapter eight and then chapter nine and things were getting ready to go to print that this was the book we were going to study in the fall and I just saw some things that were huge red flags and I called some of these other women and none of them had actually read the whole book before they started recommending it and I just what is happening um but I nearly did the same thing I mean I had gotten almost to the end and was a and felt the pressure to go ahead and give the okay and then finished reading it thankfully but we do we have to be so careful we have to teach people how to actually vet um resource material and and that means reading the book to the end I think we both we all just want to know what these books were I was Spill the Beans don't we spill the be was it the M be not I I don't have anything great to add to those those really great answers but I guess I would just say um one thing we have to be aware of and I'm not saying anything any either I know the women know this but I I know we have a lot of of male church leaders here as well and and that is um I remember saying to a pastor years ago he it's been years now but he said what is it I don't know that I should know okay well here's what you should know what you should know is who the personalities speakers teachers whatever are that if you say something that contradicts what they are teaching the women in your church will believe that person and not you be because you know the pastor what has he got you know 30 minutes a week right and um but maybe there is podcast reading and the power of social media so um with our audience today I guess I would just say you know people are going to Bubble Up that everybody's listening to and I think you can't immediately start condemning and picking at but I do do think especially if you're in leadership that you've got to be willing to dive in to what that person is teaching and espousing so that you are equipped but it's probably not going to help to just AIT you know pull the guns out and just start um shooting but you're probably going to have to figure out a way you know here are some things this person is saying I can see why this person's appealing and I can see what the what this message resonates but here's where we need to be careful and and the truth is um that's where theological growth comes you know I I just finished working on a study on acts and and in Acts you've got these huge conflicts that come up in the church specifically um you know this one that leads to the jerusem council and it's a con it's a theologically constructive conflict isn't it because it clarifies the true gospel and so we can we don't just want to be shooting down people but use those kind of things as opportunities to clarify the gospel can I say one follow up on this and this is a true story from my friend Angela who works at RTS um before she was in Ministry and working with with them she worked as a bank teller and this was a fascinating thing the way they teach you to spot a counterfeit is actually the first month that she worked at the bank all they show you is real money and you have to sit there and you have to look at real money and they learn they teach you all these signs and every day you're only looking at real money only looking at real money only looking at real money and then about a month in they start slipping in counterfeits and she said immediately you can recognize it your eye had become so attuned to seeing what is true you could spot what was false and here's the problem counterfeits can be a million different ways so you can always come up with a new way to be a counterfeit there's only one way to be true and so they had taught them how to see what was true so they could spot what was false there are going to be a million counterfeits on the internet if we're going to again see what is true we have to be in truth so that we can immediately spot was the only way to get that spidey sense of like that's off MH yeah you know is to is to be seeing what's true over and over and ever again that's good now let me just piggyback on what we've already been talking about because of these different voices speaking in a lot of them through the internet how is the changing culture impact ing the discipleship of women and especially consider social media and these other influences I'll start with you Melissa yeah I think um yeah I'm just a big proponent of find the older woman in your church and you know talk to her it's really tempting to go to the really polished online Voice or the you know the person who can teach amazingly and and that's a blessing that we have these resources but there is something about sitting in a living room with an older woman I can remember an older woman in my life I'd get in the car with her and I knew I would only have her for a little bit but I knew her kids all still liked being around her and I would get in the car and be like why do your kids also like you they had you I mean and one of my friends noticed she's like when you get in the car with conis you have your questions ready I was like I know I this is my moment and that's life on life and you know I still still get together with knis and and now my kids are all that age and she's a real person in my real life and I think we look at the model of Jesus it was real people in his real life he invested in 12 and the world was changed so you know as we invest in people if you're a woman who's investing in people you don't have to invest in thousands invest in like three and just invest in them and love them I mean that that is the power of Life transformation so I I just it's great get good teaching from a lot of places but just don't neglect the older women in your church who have a lot to teach you that's good Lee yeah I you know there's no shortcut for growing in wisdom um but I'm always looking for the shortcut um because I'm busy and it's a lot easier to multitask and listen to a podcast uh from somebody while I'm cooking dinner or on a walk and I'm always trying to do two things at once but going and sitting with an older woman who for me was Betty in my first church and Joyce in my second Church um those were when I think about my own growth um those those were the seasons of profound growth um because I was taking the time to invest in a relationship in the context of theological mentoring and teaching so um yeah I that's a good reminder for me too Nancy what was the question how do you see the culture change change that we've been talking about social media all this impacting the discipleship of women in the local church well I know how it's impacting me and that is that I I have an embarrassingly more and more limited attention span like I sit at my desk and I'm trying to think deeply about something you know perhaps to write about it and like I just just want to go look up Facebook you know or very quickly you know I want to go get something to drink I I I I think an impact right and and I find that even we got in the car yesterday to drive up here and I I opened a book that honestly as I started reading I thought this is the most fascinating book I have read in ages and yet I really struggled to just stay tuned in because I think I think social media has really shortened my ability to focus and so I guess I would just say personally I'm just having to fight against that and to um keep encouraging myself to uh invest in reading and and and I guess can I just relate that to what we're talking about today we're talking about the theological development of women and we're here representing RTS for which I am so grateful for what I have and am learning from RTS and I know my friends would say the same thing but I I would just say you know there are a lot of women who think I'm either never going to be able to go to Seminary you know or I'm never going to have the money for it whatever I would just say read good books read good books I think most of my theological education as grateful as I am for what I've received at RCS some of it has been books I've been assigned to read from RTS and and another Seminary but I would just for for most of my life before I even started Seminary I was already writing books but it was from Reading good books and you know re not just lightly reading but really digging in to try to understand something so uh so I would just say to any woman here who's who's seeking to grow theologically maybe you don't have a big book big book budget hopefully you know somebody has a great Library you know I can think of a couple of pastors including my current pastor he laughed at me so hard he came in between Services a Time recently and I was like on the floor uh going through his section on a particular book of the Bible because I was getting ready to work on it and he just started laughing so hard but um first of all he's given me the freedom to do that and I'm really good at returning them that's the key that's the key to to be able to be a good borrower but read good books you can learn so much from Reading good books really good and lean is all of our there are free classes on the RTS app too right yeah 45 plus yeah so you can I mean I've had friends who are listening yeah listen to the whole the whole course yes yeah so rather than even maybe the lighter podcast yeah digging true and it's you know I think one one challenge for those of us that are sort of you know Focus there's a focus deficit there is is reading a good book because it's easy to get pulled away the same thing listening to a lecture listening to a 50-minute leure so you it's something that you have to develop habits in and so maybe listening would be a Gateway into reading more challenging things as well but you I I do think we have to fight against that I I know I do uh because I I have to live in the world of the immediate because people need answers really quickly and I don't have a lot of uninterrupted time and that definitely has an impact on study uh and and and everybody has busy lives we're we're all busy there's a stuff there's a lot of stuff going on out there and so you cultivating discipline to find time to study and then reflect on it and think things out and if you're teaching right outlines and that nature that that our culture hasn't done a great job educationally of Preparing People to do that we we everywhere I go in theological education people tell me you know our students are great they just can't read read write think or speak and that's a that's a that's a culture-wide thing that has happened and so you may you know there may be work that you need to do there in the area of reading learning how to read uh you there books how to read a book uh learning how to think about things and uh all all of that impacts your ability to do intake of good sound theological truth from the scripture can sh oh oh sorry can I share a little thing about a secret about the app if you go on the app and you know you can listen as Melissa said to the lectures um for various courses well there's um you know all those courses also have a re required reading but you wouldn't know what the required reading is in the app but if you go to the RTS website rts.edu you can click on the syllabi for any class and then there you will find what the required reading was for the course you listen to on the app and so that's a great way to get exposed to really good academic writing from um all different um periods of the church's life Le's given us the secrets for how to get an RTS degree for free okay so we're talking about women and Theological education and I think one thing all of us of sometimes hear from women is okay I am I am interested in seminary um and I love it that so many women I know who are pursuing a seminary degree it's not necessarily because there's a particular job they need a degree for to get they just want to know the word and scripture better but at this but also it if you do pursue a degree it it's a big investment and there are many women who they really need to be able to get a job after they have made that huge investment in seminary and um and it can be it's different with different types of churches in terms of who they will hire for full-time paid staff so I think this is a challenge for women who want to grow theologically is there going to be a job out there that's going to may have made the investment of Seminary worth it so I just wonder how you deal with that as head of a seminary and the impact you have on on pastors and churches in their hiring well one is we want all of our students to be thinking that question the men as well as the women need to be thinking a theological education is a very expensive thing if all you wanted to be able to do is teach the Bible better in your local church you know if you're a Sunday school teacher or uh a Bible teacher in the church so I want to make sure everybody is asking what's my vocational aspiration here and how is Seminary serving that and that's particularly important for women until the last 10 years there haven't been that many jobs in complimentary and Evangelical churches that were full-time my my wife served back starting back in the 1980s uh in two large Presbyterian churches there were not many full-time positions for and she worked in Christian education uh and so she had a theological degree from a seminary and worked in Christian education and then she came RTS and did a counseling uh degree and that's where I intercepted her and kept her from going back to the church which is why I had to go to the 35 Elders in her church and ask for her hand in marriage because their plan was for her to come back to the church so she when she she is it leads the women's fellowship at RTS Jackson and we have at least three groups of women in that Fellowship women that are pursuing theological education some of them are heading on to do PhD studies and and pursue academics te teach in colleges teach in high schools other things like that some of them are studying in the counseling program uh where probably a majority of of our students are women studying for the counseling program and they're looking not only to do professional counseling but some of them counsel in the context of local churches and param Ministries and things of that nature and then those who are spouses of those that are in the and those those are three really distinct groups and we do spouse scholarship so there are a lot of spouses in classes uh at RTS probably 20 North of 20% of RTS students are women so we have a lot of women in class pursuing theological education we love that and uh but for for those that are coming to do a degree we just want to make sure that they have there's there's an end goal that's achievable for the purposes of that of that degree and sometimes we can help in networking you know what this person is outstanding Bob you're looking for such and such you need to you need and and thankfully RTS has a very high placement rate um it's north of 95% placement rate within 6 months of graduation and that's for everybody men and women and uh but it take the admissions folks on the front end will do a good job of talking with you about that and then the women that are working with teaching women to teach and on the various campuses with a women fellowship that's one of the big conversations that they have with the women who are students at RTS because we want to serve them well there uh we don't we we don't want you to spend a lot of time doing a degree and and that's not the best use of your time we if if that's what you're going to do we want to make sure you can put it to work in the right place for the Lord let me let me ask each of you real quick you work with men in various capacities based on your experience what do you wish that men understood about working with women can I start with you NY oh well they're going to have better answers than me probably I you know I work at home with and there's one man working there and so and I like him a lot and good way to go David so I probably probably it's it's not exactly same I I I I'll just speak to being a woman in the church interacting with pastors would that be all right yeah um I I've had both really positive and really not terrible negative experiences like some people have had but you know I can remember a pastor who basically he never looked a woman in the eye so you're like you pass him the hall and never in in the eye or or even trying to have a conversation it was just and so maybe his desire was seeking to be appropriate but what it felt like is like I could have never gone to him about some significant issue because I I I I didn't sense I could have a meaningful conversation with him or I can think about a time you know I I was teaching and we were teaching through rans and I was I got assigned to teach Romans 9 through 11 thank you very much and I mean I was just really struggling with how to handle that and and I wanted to teach it in accordance to the Theology of that my church teaches right not just be kind of on my own with that and I remember going to a particular Pastor before teaching and just like okay I I read this all Israel will be saved and like okay and I'm talking to him about what I'm going to do with that he's like yeah sounds good and I was just like whoa wait I need more than that and and so what it felt very dismissive to me an unwillingness to engage with me in a way that I I was thought I was really thoughtfully trying to teach well right um but I've had the total Mo most of my experiences have been the total opposite you know I I I can think of a pastor who came to our church I was just beginning to teach through uh seeing Jesus in the Old Testament and he saw what I was doing and got excited about it and so you know just for pastors who are would listening I would just say you just don't know the power of your encouraging word I mean the fact that a pastor took notice and he was excited about what I was doing and that he opened his library to me and recommended resources that just that was just an enormous encouragement to me and I just I I think pastors underestimate that Lee what do you wish men understood oh gosh um she can go on for a while on this Andre well I mean my I think my experience has been um really unique at RTS because in so many contexts at work I'm often the only girl in the room um which actually I really like cuz I think women are harder to work with than men are um but I will tell you that um you know oneon-one I have so many great relationships with the men I work with um they really are like Brothers to me and we've really leaned in to um the metaphor that of the household of faith you know that scripture uses to describe how these relationships should be and so we've talked about that a lot that you know what our work relationships look like are brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and um and that has brought me so much joy to have relationships with all these brothers um but I'll also say I you know I've worked for RTS now for over 10 years I think she needs a race oh I do I do um and I think it was probably five years ago um Mike Allen who is our academic Dean invited me to come in and speak at a faculty meeting um and to talk about how to engage women in a classroom when there are only a handful of women in a classroom with so many men and I walked into the faculty meeting and here are all these men I know that most of them have been professors I was the only woman in the room and suddenly I got so nervous like and my voice started to shake a little and afterwards Scott Swain who's here and is my boss he was like you I don't think he'd ever seen me nervous before in a group of men I mean I usually I don't mind owning a room when there's a bunch of men in it but I got nervous and I just I started realizing that you know there is something about um when you're the one of something so you know it was like I had a I had an understanding of maybe what it's like to you know be a minority and walk into a room when you're the only one and um and happen to then come across a study about how many women it takes to be in a room before women feel comfortable speaking up and so I would say to men just remember that sometimes women are conditioned from childhood in many context especially in the South and especially in Christian contexts that the most valuable thing about you is you know to be polite and polite is oftentimes equated with keeping your mouth shut and so um I would just remind men that when women do speak up it's probably been really hard for them to get there that's good um there's there's not a lot I mean I am very opinionated but sometimes it takes a lot of coaxing to get it out of me um because my default is I'm supposed to be nice and I'm supposed to be polite so that's I recognize that uh Melissa yeah I think um the biggest thing I would love for both men and women to recognize is that our differences are beneficial and God ordained so I just want us to true compliment and I want I want it to be that no the room is better when women are there because I need their perspective just like as a woman I want to say the room is better when my brothers are there because I need their perspective and so it goes both ways it's been one of the reasons I love working for TGC to be quite honest because I need my brothers um and they have made me feel like they need me to and I can't tell you just that hey I don't we don't want to publish this without your eyes on it Melissa that that that's an amazing level just of respect of I know you're going to because I know you are different as a woman you're going to read this differently and because I know you I mean Mike can I do this like everything I I write my husband reads note with him I'm always like just make sure I'm not a heretic like just don't be you know arrested or anything for that but like and with him he'll often say will you read this to make sure my Tone's right and and you know we we realize we both need each other um and that that that's what the church should look like that we both just need each other you know we can totally uphold like roles and different things like that but just I still want your perspective I want to hear from you and and I just think that's just a beautiful picture of us working together as a body amen and I and I want to thank thank each of you for the way that you serve the church and uh for the way that you serve in the setting of TGC and RTS and so many other places I'm thankful for the way that you have instilled the love for the Bible and biblical theology amongst thousands and thousands of people uh lee for your investment in the Seminary as a whole but also in teaching women to teach everything from children children's books to encouraging women Melissa we're just it's a better place because of what the Lord is doing through you so thank thank all of you thank you [Applause] [Music] Lian