Kids are not saved by perfect parenting [A conversation with the Krugers] | Word First

Michael and Melissa, thank you guys for sitting down uh for a conversation. Well, let me just start here. I was talking to your daughter and son-in-law last night who I've met before, but uh and I wish people could just see the joy on this newlywed couple's face uh faces. um but they are preparing to go to the other side of the world um to make the gospel known in a remote part of Southeast Asia. So let's rewind and think is this is this part of your dream for your kids? It is and it isn't. Um, you know, one of the things I think we we always wanted as parents, of course, is to see our kids come to know Christ and and not just be Christians, but to really be passionate about the gospel and passionate about reaching people for Christ. And we always wanted that in our kids. Did I have this plan? Did we have this vision for, you know, sending our child to the other end of the earth? Well, I don't know that we really ever thought that far ahead. But one of the things that we saw about our daughter is that at a very young age, she was already getting a call to the mission field even in kindergarten. Um, and I think we watched it happen in a way that were like, can you really be called to the mission field in kindergarten, but her passion for other people groups started when she was really young. They had a thing at her school. She went to a Christian school and had a thing about other tribes, other people, lost groups. And she came home all excited and said, "I want to be a missionary." And we were like, "Well, okay. kids say lots of things, you know, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer and whatever. And we're and and we're certainly thinking that's wonderful. Um, and you know what? The Lord has done it. And we are just so thankful and so proud of her and scared at the same time, honestly. You know, she's going to a far away place, but it's it's been a joy to watch. >> Yeah. You may not know. I remember when I first got pregnant with her. I do remember praying, um, Lord, if she can just walk with you, you can take her anywhere you want to go. We were living in Scotland at the time she was born. So she actually got her passport picture when she was one week old. So this child has been this actually >> she's been an international child from from the beginning. >> An international child. Um and but I do definitely remember praying that. Um you know I do laugh now because the place she's planning to go or they're planning to go, you can fly either way. It is truly the farthest side of the world from I was like, "Oh, this one's really far." But I I do just remember thinking, I know we would have eternity together. So even if he sends her somewhere, what really matters is eternity. And so I do remember praying that even when she was little, but she might now be upset that I was praying that. >> Yeah. Why' you pray that? What were you thinking? And you pray for a closer location. >> So good. Like what a prayer for every prospective parent to pray or I mean parent with any child of any age at this point. What was it again? Lord, I just want them to follow you and you can take them anywhere. >> Take them where? Because what is life but a breath? And so this is momentary. We will, you know, be in glory together. I mean, that's what you're hoping for. And so I mean honestly it would be way more unsafe for my child to live next door and be running after the world. >> That's unsafe, you know. So to be following God is always the safest thing to be doing wherever it might be. Um that doesn't mean it, you know, physically safe always. It doesn't mean all the things we may long for, but that's the safest place to be. Not enough. >> So good. This feels so obvious even as I'm processing this with you all, but uh it's it's so hard for a parent like to say, "I want your will for my child more than I want my will for my child." Like I Yeah. to really trust God with your children. That's the core of that kind of prayer. >> Well, I think a lot of parents have all kinds of aspirations for their kids. I mean we did a session on parenting just yesterday here at the conference and one of the things that we talked about there is how some some parents are like you know academics is the thing summer sports is the thing and I'm always amazed at how much parents will pour into trying to guide their kid to various things but I don't know that that as many Christian parents are thinking but am I guiding them to the ultimate thing or am I guiding them to possibly serving Christ in in more uh formative ways I mean um doesn't I mean, everyone's called to be in ministry. People do lots of things and that that are glorifying to God. But I I I don't know if that's a category for a lot of parents. And I don't even know if we had it all mapped out, but I think as Melissa said, we we just said, "Look, Lord, do something special with this child, wherever it might be." And again, we didn't anticipate other end of the globe, >> but hey, you know, there's a great need over there and we're excited for Well, and you uh you have other children who uh at this point, God is not uh called in the same way that he's called this one particular daughter. Like uh you have a son who spent some time overseas and came back was like, "Yep, that's not what God's called me to do." >> Yeah. Yeah. No, he did he did a short-term mission trip and he he he loved it and had a great time at it, but I think, you know, he was like, "Yeah, I don't think that's the thing for me long term." Um he he didn't think that was the thing that he's going to do vocationally, but um but he loves the Lord and and serves Christ where he is. And in his future career, I know he'll he'll be as glorifying to Christ as he can be. And our our youngest child, same thing. She loves Jesus and has passion for the arts and for music and writing. Um and I know that she'll serve Christ there. >> So good. That's where the prayer like so success is not when they go to the other side of the world. Success is when they're following Jesus and going wherever he leads them. >> That's right. >> Exactly. And our youngest sometimes struggles with that. I think she's, you know, she's got two parents who have kind of been in ministry, you know, her whole childhood and then she has this big sister who's doing that and she'll sometimes say, "Is is it okay?" And we're like, "Oh, we need people in every area working in every type of job glorifying God in that." Um, so we've always felt like, hey, it's totally fine for your mission field to be, you know, the bank that you work at or the engineer firm you work for. Like that's that's great. But >> yeah, we we actually have a little bit of a standing family joke where we almost try to talk our kids out of ministry, right? So, uh, not out of Christ, just to be clear, we're we're 100% want them to serve and love Jesus, but ministry is hard. Anybody who's in ministry knows, you know, it's hard. And our kids actually have seen because they live with two parents in ministry how hard it can be. And and and so we have this sort of half joke, half not joke. We're like, you know, maybe you don't want to do this, >> you know. Um and don't feel bad that you're not because there's other great ways to serve Christ. But then on the flip side, we're we we we certainly welcome God's call to the ministry. And it looks like our oldest is headed that way. And we'll see. We'll see what happens. So, all right, let's back up because all right, yes, your kindergarten daughter went to a Christian school where she was hearing about unreached people around the world. Um, but there were some other things I think that were happening between uh 0 to 5 after you're praying that prayer as you're pregnant and and then after that that are cultivating uh well, the answer to this prayer, I'll follow you, Jesus, wherever you want me to go. Um what what are just some practical things you guys have done as parents to uh you know obviously uh we believe in the glory of God's grace only he can save but there are means but that he's go and not but and there are means that God's called us to do to pour the gospel into uh our children with the with the hope that they'll follow Jesus. So how how's that played out just practically in you guys family? >> Melissa and I have always had I would say it this way. I think we we both always had a sort of a global perspective on our ministry just by God's providence. We both did short-term missions trips ourselves when we were in college. Melissa to the Ukraine, me to Kenya in Africa, and then we did an international PhD in Edinburgh, which, you know, obviously isn't the unreached tribe somewhere, but you know, there's a great need for the gospel in Scotland. Um, but it gives you this international flavor like the world's a big place. There's lots going on. And then when we started having young kids, one of the things we did do with them, and there's there's lots of things that that we we we we wanted to do with them, but one of the main things we do with them is is when we did our prayer time as a family, we actually pray for named missionaries. So, we didn't just pray for the world generally, but we had a person and a country that we prayed for. And I think that was part of it, right? You realize, oh, the world's bigger than than my neighborhood and, you know, bigger than the city I live in, but there's so much going on around the globe. And that that perspective, I think, was part of it. Yeah. And then when those missionaries would come home, because a lot of them were something from our church, they would be like, >> "Yeah, they're missionaries that the kids actually knew. >> That's the Fosters. We pray for them." And, "Oh, that's Dan and Allison, you know, and they're in Thailand." And I mean, they they actually remembered because they they prayed for years for, you know, these missionaries we were supporting. And I think them seeing that um helped them just normalize it. You know, it's not something >> other people do. Yeah. And and we always said actually we're part of it by prayer. >> Um so you know we're part of the sending if we're not going we should be praying in our home. >> And you know one one other international thing that the Lord allowed us to do is I did a sbatical research soatical in Cambridge England um well after my PhD and we took the whole family and lived in Cambridge for 6 months. But then when we were in Cambridge for 6 months, we traveled to see different missionary friends. >> Uh some in Prague, some in Spain from from from the UK and all our kids were with us. Um and they got that impression of seeing actual missionaries on the ground in their home country, which was part of it. Um, so, you know, I've always loved that about um, the opportunities we've had because I just think, you know, there it's easy for everybody to always just be thinking about the person right outside your door, which is the place to start. You always start with where God has put you, you know, but to remember there's a there's a big role that God loves and wants to reach. >> Remember also we did dispatches from the front nights. >> Oh, yeah. That's right. We did do that. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can't go because obviously like most people can't up and move for 6 months that you know and visit missionaries and all of that. Um but this was a way you bring the world to your to your living room. Look I mean everyone's looking for like family movie night. Ours was dispatches from the front. >> This is a yeah video series. You probably know about it which is you know basically on-site missionary testimonies about what they're doing in various countries. And we just sort of had a movie night with our kids like that. Now some some people hear that laugh and go our kids would never go for that. >> That's such a fun job. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's like, well, would have been fun growing up in your house. Um, >> but actually the kids liked it and there's a little bit of an adventure side to it. You're figuring out foreign countries and you're learning the ropes and, you know, riding in some, you know, jeep through the jungle. So, there were some fun parts to that. Well, they're just uh so this will be just a total shameless radical plug here, but uh like our content team and what they put together like hardto-reach series, neighborhoods and nations. It's it's similar like it's my kids are like mesmerized by seeing what's happening around the world and those videos just kind of open eyes to how how's what is what's happening in Iran for the spread of the gospel, what's happening in Indonesia, what's happening in Japan and what are the challenges. So, but there there are we have plenty of resources available to us to help kids see what's what God's doing in the world that we can we can do in our living room. And I love what you said about uh even praying. So, letting that lead to pray specifically and realizing that in praying for these missionaries, they were participating with them in the work that's happening around the world now. I love that perspective that it's not just like training you or preparing you for what you might do in the future. It's like life now. We as a family right now are a part of spreading the gospel around the world through the way we are praying through the way we might give. Yeah. So through our relationships with to realize ah like well in our lives but my kindergartner can actually be a part of what God's doing in our nations right now. >> Yeah. one our oldest actually when we were in Cambridge I don't know if you remember this she formed a missionary club with the other kids in we were at this Tindle house it was a lovely little community and these other kids >> he was 10 years old at the time >> yeah and they formed a missionary club and we would write letters to different missionaries we knew just to encourage them and I was like >> the church should be doing this >> you know how great to get little letters from kids and and then those kids are drawing and you know maybe see a like Sunday school classes we You know, we should do more of that in the church. >> I love that >> that is age appropriate for kids to watch maybe a five minute video, you know, something that y'all are putting on and then write letters to them and support them. >> Um, I just think that would be such a good use of Sunday school time for kids or children's church time. >> That's so good. And for them to see, yes, I'm a part of this now and then maybe my part will change in the days ahead, uh, like when I get older, but I can actually play a part right now. That's pretty awesome. And and I love how so having talked with your daughter before uh who is going overseas um how that was playing out. What do you remember the uh culde-sac story? Uh >> oh yeah >> like tell that story. That was amazing. >> So >> cuz it's not it's not just about like I want to spread the gospel around the world like >> Yeah. So this is a great story. So she, as we said earlier, when she was five, she started thinking she wanted to be a missionary. But then even as she got a little bit older, six or seven, she started witnessing to our neighbors and sharing the gospel with our next neighbor's son, who was a kid, giving him a Bible. Um, and we went to the neighbor and said, "Oh, I hope that's okay." And the neighbor said, "Well, there's worse things your daughter could be giving my son." So, but then one day I was driving home from work and uh I came up to our house which was was in a culde-sac and written on the street in chalk, kids chalk in pink colors was the word repent in huge letters re e p n t right there and I just said, "Oh, looks like my daughter's been busy in the street drawing out evangelistic messages." So, um so I pulled in the driveway and I said, "Emma, did you draw the thing?" And she goes, "Yeah, Dad. What do you think?" And so I, you know, I encouraged her. I was like, "It's wonderful you're sharing the gospel." And I said to myself, I'm not sure that that's the exact method we would have chosen, but you know, it was it re revealed her wonderful heart. >> I just love that it was a culde-sac. Like literally, you would have to turn around and go the other way. You cannot keep going. >> The symbolism was rich. And maybe she even had that in her head. I don't know. >> That's amazing. Uh but I I do I I highlight that just because um yeah, I you're uh we want our kids to follow Jesus not just in the future, right now. and where he's placed us now, which involves sharing the gospel. >> That's right. >> And I think I think, you know, when you think about someone who ends up on the mission field, it it doesn't start when they're 25 and decide, I'm going to go to the mission field. It's like you said, that that process is a long process, which is why the whole idea of being globally aware and thinking about missions should should be permeating our lives long before someone gets the call, right? Um and and so yeah, she's going to end up on the mission field, but it really started with many many steps before that. And I think that's that that keeps it from being a sharp demarcation between those missionaries out there, they're over there doing missions work, and then there's us over here who aren't. Um that finding a way to blend those two together, I think, is so key. >> That's good. So, let I'm going to I want to back up even a little bit more in the sense and back up in this way that I think about a young couple who just this last Sunday they were uh baptized in our church family uh just have a little baby. She's few months old, but they are totally green. They've never been in church. They've never they didn't grow up in Christian homes. Like everything is green and like gloriously new and exciting for them. uh for them thinking about parenting, like what are some encouraging things you would say if you if it's like, "Hey, I'm all I'm I'm new to the gospel. I'm new I have no I have no idea what parenting looks like in a way that would be different from maybe how I was raised without the gospel." Yeah. What just even some basic things? What would you What would you say if you got just a few minutes with that couple? What are some of the things that you're just encouraging them with? >> Yeah. Well, one of the things that we talk about in our parenting discussions is there's a lot to be afraid of out there when you're a parent and it's easy to be anxious about so many things and every generation of parents has that problem. But then in our current moment, you know, we have, you know, social media and mobile phones and, you know, when do I let my kid have one and these sorts of things and a lot of pressures and cultural change going on around us. And so, I mean, step one for any parent is just recognizing that the key to parenting is making sure that God is at the center of everything you're doing as a family because he's the hope your kid has, right? And so, rather than thinking so much about how do I change my child, control my child, mold my child, trusting that God is at work through families, using families, and have a certain amount of optimism that God is busy doing that. Um, and not not focus on the on the fear side of it, but focus on the hope, the hope in God. >> Yeah, I was going to say the exact thing. I was going to say it's going to be really tempting for you to fear and overcompensate trying to get everything right and just remember the basics, you know, really matter. Um, pick a pick a verse and memorize it with your kids. Pray with them regularly. Just every night, you know, when you're sitting at the kitchen table, just say a prayer. I mean, that that's teaching them how to talk to God and then go to church. I mean, you you >> the ABCs of the Christian life. like those are going to one they're going to transform your heart because the first call is love the lord your god with all your heart soul and strength and you know and then impress these on your children is second so I would say you grow in the knowledge of the lord and and the other is going to flow down but you be transformed and that transformation is going to make an impression on your child and so don't feel like you have to get it all right just follow Jesus and the word prayer and church those are your those are your basics One of the things that I think is obvious is that our our kids end up to some extent being like us. >> And you know, even though we don't think they're listening to us, we don't think they're going to model themselves after us. The truth of the matter is the biggest influence on our kids' lives are parents. And so rather than thinking, let me really try to change my child. Start with yourself and make sure you're following Christ. And if they're if they're imitating you, even if they're not intending to, hopefully they're imitating you as you imitate Christ. And so, you know, for parents, you know, the parenting starts without parenting doesn't start with parenting. parenting starts with following Jesus first and then it goes from there. Flows flows down. >> It it would not make sense to pray what you prayed for your child. I just want that Lord, would they follow you and wherever you lead them? Uh if you're not like I just want to follow you and wherever you lead me uh like showing what that looks like and I love that even just thinking about that encouragement to this young couple and to any uh parents, but just uh you follow Jesus and then involve them in the process. Pray with them. read the Bible with them, go to church with them, do do even ministry with them. That's right. Uh, one of the analogies I I often give that highlights that is when you're on an airplane and the and the flight attendant says, you oxygen mask drops from the ceiling, put yours on first before you help someone else. And every time I hear that, I always think that sounds kind of selfish, right? Like, why would I put my own on first and then before I help someone else? But then you realize if I'm not breathing in oxygen, I'm not good at anybody. I'm not useful for anyone. >> Um, and that's what it means to be a parent. you have to be breathing in God's word, breathing in uh the Holy Spirit yourself if you're going to help your child. So, in one sense, you do put the mask on first. >> Um you follow Christ first, then you help your child follow Christ. And I think that's a good analogy of what we're talking about. >> And in our digital age, we just where you can listen to the Bible. And all these are great ways to to get the Bible. I'm not against it. If you can have your actual physical Bible so your kid knows what you're doing because you know on your phone you could be if if you're reading the Bible on your phone. They could think you're Instagramming it, Facebook, you know, whatever. But when they actually see you up in the morning reading your Bible and, you know, I always kept a prayer journal and doing those things, they're paying attention. Um they're they're watching that. And I remember with each of our kids, I never actually said, "Hey, you need to spend time reading the Bible. We gave them Bibles. Um, but I I can remember actually with our son opening the door, he would kind of sneak up to his room and he would shut the door. He didn't want us to see him reading his Bible. He was kind of like he's sneaky about his Christianity. >> Yeah. So, when you have a teen, when you have a teenage boy that sneaks in his room and shuts the door, you're like, um, you know, what's going on in there? Um, and so when we sort of trying to figure out what he was doing there, he's in there reading his Bible. You know, it was like, this is great. >> And he would kind of look up and be annoyed like, why are you in here? >> Yeah. Why are you interrupting my Bible reading? It's nothing. It's great. >> But they, I think, just saw when they just see that's a normal part of being a Christian. And I think that the things we're doing just to be a Christian >> are are impressing upon our kids things and what we're spending our lives on, they're they're going to see it, which is a huge responsibility. Um, but it's also it's not complicated. >> I always say it's it's like losing weight. It's really simple, but it's really hard to do. Um, and so the the Christian life is made to be simple. There's not a secret formula. Again, we're in prayer in the church. It's really simple, but the world's going to come at you with everything you should be doing. Your own flesh is going to fight you. The devil's going to tempt you. Everything's assaulting. So, you don't just do the basics. >> And so, the more we can say, I'm going to fight the battle on my knees in the word and at church, that's going to be this force field, I feel like, for us and our families. That's so good. And uh obviously knowing okay do these things like there's no guarantee like uh a plus b plus c will automatically lead to this right here. But this is one of the things I love when we did that uh had that uh panel discussion at the women's conference for TCC. Um and we were talking about uh kids who may I mean I know there's some people listening to this who'll be like I mean I would Yeah. Yeah. I would love for my child to go to the other side of the world spreading the gospel. I'd love for them just to be willing to open their Bible at this point. Um, but I remember you saying, uh, you know, yes, my daughter who was sitting next to you is walking with the Lord, but I don't presume upon that for tomorrow. And so it's not like I'm just like sitting back and coasting right now. Like no parent ever coasts in that sense, right? >> No. you're you when you get to heaven >> and you all greet each other, that moment is the one you I think finally feel safe. >> Uh you not we know the Lord will keep them. I mean, you know, we believe in the the efficacy of his salvation power, but we've just all all of us have watched people turn from the Lord later in life and you're like, why? Why now? And so I think again, what do you do as a young parent? You read the Bible and you pray. What do you do as a parent of adult kids? You read the Bible and you pray, you know, and you surround yourself with the community of the church who will also pray for your child when they're wandering, when they're doubting, when they're in complete and utter rebellion. You need the church, not just they need the church. Um, and there's just I think if we could just remember again, kids are not saved by perfect parenting. >> By grace, you have been saved through faith. And this side of yourself is gift of God. So we've got to lower the temperature for parents and say what you do matters but it is not it cannot matter salvifically. Yeah. I mean God's going to save a people for himself but what we do can can create an environment where that faith can flourish. >> So it's very important but it's not ultimate. Uh, I hope people hearing those words right now would I like part of me in a fresh way just feels like some weight off my shoulders like I uh yeah like yes it matters but not ultimately that's a really good word thankfully not ultimately on my shoulders. Um so well now okay fast forward so back to All right your daughter son-in-law new son-in-law are about to go. So, do you guys I mean you've said I I prayed this. Is there any fear or uh or yeah I don't even know what the word would be best described. What are the emotions you all feel? >> I think well I feel many things. I mean certainly you know foreign countries can be scary places and you know there's there's certain fears you have about safety and things like this. I think that are normal. Um but my my biggest fear and I don't I don't know that we've even laid out our fears of each other actually. My biggest fear is more I'm just really going to miss her. You know, I I I you know, you you we we she I feel like she just graduated and got married and I'm like, "Oh, you know, now we maybe we could, you know, now we're adults. We can spend more time together. Off you go." And so there's a sense in which I think there's a relational price >> that that is being paid there, which is, hey, you know, we're willing to pay that because we want her to go where the Lord wants her to go. I think if there's any sort of weight or fear, I'm like, I'm just going to miss her and our new son-in-law, too, and >> and wish we could spend more time with them. >> And it's not easy to fly the other side of the world and see them. So, I think that's that's that's what's on my shoulders. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would I was I mean, it's the exact same. The cost is our happiest place, we were talking earlier, is our back porch. And the happiest of that happy place is when everybody's home. >> And it'll just be a long time. >> It'll be a long time when we get >> So, it's a cost. But goodness, it's like, well, it the Lord has stuff for us to do, so we need to be busy with that. And the Lord has stuff for them to do, and we need to be busy with that. The fields are white for harvest. So um it may be emptier >> in in certain ways and that's part of the cost. There's always a cost but you know he who gave his own son um how can he not also give us all things so we can trust that what's given in this life you know is just insignificant in in in light of what we've been given. Um but yeah I mean there will be tears at Christmas and Easter's and you know when we're at the beach together and they're not there. It's going to it's just um CS Lew talks CS Lewis talks about um when one of his friends died he said you would think oh now I had more of my other two friends and he said but I actually had less of them because I'll never see how this friend lights up when this friend makes a joke again. So it's I think it's like that with our families when they're all together. There's a fullness that you see how they interact and the things go on and that will be lessened just with one with one gone. Um, and so >> it's not the same dynamics. >> It's like a it's like a a singing quartet. They talk about how when four people sing together, they create a fifth voice when they're unified and something else happens when you bring them all together that you couldn't get with just three or certainly with one. And families are like that. >> Um, and so we're going to miss that. But, you know, I think part of the thing that will be exciting, too, is the reunions will be extra sweet. when we are together, I think there'll be some special depth and joy that wouldn't have been there if there hadn't been some some distance. And the other thing that we we certainly thankful for is modern technology really helped. >> Yes, you know, when we were living overseas back in the day, there was no internet to speak of, no no FaceTime, you know, and so that will ease it. We know it's not the same as being like Adar Judson writing a letter to his wife when he's traveling. It'll be 3 months before. So, you know, when you said goodbye back then, it was goodbye, you know. >> I mean, even when I was in Ukraine the whole summer, I couldn't call or talk to my parents, you know, there was no letters got through the whole summer, you know, and it was it was complete blackout. >> I can't believe my parents let me do that. I mean, I was maybe 19 and, you know, it's it's amazing. It was complete. Whereas, we'll be able to like I can find find my friend. >> Yeah. Yeah. You might know where she is. >> That's good. airport right now. You can follow. I mean, when they were just they were just visiting, traveling, I was like, "Oh, they're in, you know, this country right now." And, you know, so it's that's a nice that's a nice gift. >> I I do think I'm really glad you guys Yeah. we're willing to share even just about that cost because I think about uh well and I I don't want to pile on to that cost. Uh but yeah, I just think about some of my friends who are around the world and they're raising kids away from grandparents and uh yeah, there's there there's a there is definitely or they miss out on uh like parents are struggling in this way and they would love to be right beside them. So, I just think that and especially in a culture where uh yeah, often times we just kind of expect all we're going to be around the people we are familiar with or around our hometown like that feels normal for a lot of people uh to go totally against the grain. Yeah, it does uh carry a price with it. Yeah, there's a price on both sides. There's a price for the actual missionary family >> on the field. Obviously, that's a massive price, but then there's a price for the people they say goodbye to, right? Those families left behind. Many people are paying the price for that. There's a cost, but that's, you know, like we said, I mean, we prayed that prayer in the beginning. It's a cost that we're we we it's going to be a heavy cost, but it's also a cost we're willing >> to endure because we want her to be following Christ wherever she call he calls her. >> Well, and it makes me think of like the beautiful and heavy hard gospel goodbyes we see in like the book of Acts, whether it's Paul and the Ephesian elders, like they're just weeping on each other's shoulders. Uh but uh but they're going in different directions and I think it comes back to where you started and Melissa was just talking about eternity in view like okay we've got like trillions of years to get in so it's going to be we're going to have sufficient time with each other and we've got a vapor here and so how do we just just spend this vapor knowing Jesus and doing whatever he says to do. >> Yeah. And I also think about uh I always think about Numbers 13:14 when God's people they're on the edge of uh the promised land and they say we're we're we can't go in. It would be too dangerous for our kids. Like it would not be good for our kids in this place. And they're like they're saying their word for their kids in a way that actually leads them to not trusting God. And then in a quite a twist like their kids end up going to the promised land and none of them end up going. So they all they miss out totally by not trusting God with their kids. So I think it's safe to say right that trusting God with your kids is good for you guys. Not just for them but good for you guys too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean you know you you you give up but Christ promises that whatever you give up that there's a there's a backdoor blessing to that in in exponential ways. And you know you don't get your life until you lose it. Um, and so it stings a bit. Um, but but we're trusting that God's at work in us and and the things we need to let go of and the things we need to grow in. >> Um, and I think that's a missing piece of a lot of these discussions, too, right? Which is um, you know, it's not just my personal sort of, you know, relational sort of well-being that's at stake, but also just God's at work in other ways, too. So >> yeah, >> I I remember I remember one of the first trips I went on that was kind of more of a a dangerous a little more yeah, a lot more risk involved in this trip. And uh this is before kids uh this particular trip, but I remember getting on the plane. I'm I'm writing like this like just in case kind of letter to Heather and I'm like balling there on the plane. I mean I'm just losing it. And I realized like it was one level of surrender to say, "God, I'm going to go on this trip and I trust you with my life." It was a whole another level of surrender to trust God with her life. Like to as I'm thinking like, "What if I'm not there to do this or that?" Like I felt like that was even deeper faith to trust the Lord with the life of somebody you love even more than my own life. Uh but that was so sanctifying for me. It was good. It was I was like, "Wo, this is deeper surrender than even I I thought it was like surrender to go on this trip like for myself, but it was actually more surrender in a way that brought me closer to Jesus by trusting the Lord with her." >> And what what we get to taste a little bit. I mean, just a little bit. I mean, what did God do? He sent his only son. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so all of these are invitations to know the love of the father more, right? I mean, because we feel the pain of that. We're like, "Oh, you did you you I can go to you with this. You you know what this is like. This is not a suffering you have not endured to send your son for the world and and for all of our redemption." Um, in some ways, he invites us to know him more by our experiences in life. You know, he and he chose to do it for us. We wouldn't choose this in a lot of ways, but he it really is, I think, an invitation. All of this we think of parenting as we're trying to get our kids to know the Lord, but it's actually an invitation for us to know the Lord in in new ways. >> Yeah. I would say one of the other aspects here that I think gets missed in these discussions is that when you do this sort of travel and and and and have people out in other places and you're not settled and not everybody's home, there is a sense in which that is our identity right now as Christians, right? We are >> sort of, you know, sojourers. Um and there'll be a time when we're home in the new heavens and the new earth. this isn't that time. So, in as much as you feel, you know, disconnected and and on the move and always traveling and never settled, there's a sense in which that's what we're made for right now. >> Um, and um, you know, one of the things I've been able to do in my my academic space is work on early Christianity. And one of the things I always knew about early Christian from Paul on is that, you know, they they're the travel that they engaged in was was amazing because they didn't even have the conveniences of our modern world, but that the Christians were known for being travelers. Um, and um actually wrote a little blog post not long ago about this where I rift off of the Moana theme is basically we were voyagers. You know, that's the Christian identity is we're voyagers. And so there'll be a time when we're settled, but this isn't that time. And so in as much as people feel like, well, I guess I'm in a life of travel and moving and never settled. I'm like, "Yep, that's exactly right. That's what we're about. >> This is the Christian life. This is the Christian life. Alien strangers here." >> And so people who try to make home too homey um I think miss that. >> Oh wow. There, man. There's a lot there. Yes. To live like this world's not our home and to then parent like kids to see this world's not our home. Yeah. That's good. I uh Oh, there's so much there. I I want to give you guys uh final words to be thinking about. All right. What what what have we not talked about that would be particular that you'd want to include in this conversation, but I I would just say in my time with the Lord specifically over the last week or so and wrestling through some parenting things, it's been such a comfort to be reminded in a fresh way just in my time with God, just him saying, "Yeah, I'm I'm a father. >> I'm I know like this ache. I know this hurt. I know. Uh and uh and just to to to identify I that's when I was listening to you talk about uh God sent his son. But to realize yes, we're not parenting alone. We know that we know the have the Holy Spirit in us, but we have a parent, our a perfect father who promises to give us everything we need as mom and dad to to do this work. Uh, and he's he does this work perfectly as our father. So, all right. What what what what have we not talked about that would be helpful to insert into this conversation? >> I know we've cut a lot of ground. I don't know that I have anything. Do you anything? >> I know. I I'll just say the last thing, especially for someone with in the teen years. Um, I think um these can be years of feeling like Psalm 66 says, "We went through fire and through water." Um, and but then it says, "Yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance." And I think these years, just remember, they're short. And so a child might be really rebellious in them. You might be like, "Oh, yeah, I wish my child was reading the Bible or walk with the Lord or whatever." And so I would just say again, the word prayer in church, like keep those center and trust the Lord that this isn't this isn't their story. the decisions they're making right now, um what you've invested in them in the early years, all of those things are they are hidden in their heart, um and and can come back and be such a blessing to them. It's still a blessing that they've grown up in a Christian home, um and that the word has been before them their whole life. And so I always just want to say um to a parent who's just struggling in the teen years, um some of this really is developmental and it it will it will shift. Um, so today is not the end of the child's story. And so I always just like to say, >> yeah, it's the long play. >> There really is hope that the Lord is doing something and he's doing something in our hearts and that's so good. If I can just put an exclamation point on that and one I'm smiling because it's like such a good word. Like I Yes. because you have these thoughts like is it I just can't picture this forever like this at 30 or 40 but it's like okay you don't you're not supposed to like this is this is this age and uh but uh um I think about one particular uh so young adult who was just recently baptized in our church family who uh yeah she heard the gospel growing up all her life and uh and but it was and it was and going to church word prayer in church like saturated in it, not following Jesus. And then she comes one sun, like first Sunday her church, she hears the same gospel she's heard all her life and she trusts in Jesus and uh and and to talk to her dad who's like, I feel like I'm talking with like a somebody who's been walking with Jesus for a long time because all those seeds from the word are there. And so just to plant those with hope like you said, >> that's what Paul said to Timothy. You've known the scriptures since infancy which are able to make you wise for salvation. >> So, it's still a gift. They're they're hidden there. They're able to make them wise one day. >> That's good. It's really good. Well, thank both you guys on multiple levels. Like one for being obedient to Jesus, walking with Jesus, and going wherever he leads you, uh Scotland, Cambridge. Uh I just every step of the way. And uh I pray that it'll be all the more so in the days to come. uh for praying that over your kids from pregnancy and for the fruit of that. Praise God. And then for the fruit I just think you mentioned the word hope so many times. Parenting with hope like Melissa Krueger like I just would encourage commend uh yeah Michael and Melissa have done tons of stuff along these lines. Thank you guys for writing books, for uh just resourcing parents in this way and resourcing the church and all the ways that you are resourcing the church to trust the word and to uh yeah learn from the the ancient church as we walk with Jesus in contemporary days. So praise God for his grace and your lives and your family that's bearing fruit among the nations. May it be so in the days to come in greater ways than you could ask or imagine. Thank you.