Lent Week 1 with Melissa Kruger | Word First

Hello and welcome to the She Reads Truth podcast where we open our Bibles and talk about the beauty, goodness, and truth we find there. I'm your host, Amanda Bible Williams, and I'm your other host, Rachel Meyers, and I am so glad to be joined today by Melissa Krueger. She is the director of women's initiatives at the Gospel Coalition, and she is joining us for a really important day. It is day one of our Lent series and our Ezekiel series. And she's a really, really fantastic guest to kick off a 7week study. Melissa is an author of a lot of books, including one that just released on February 1st. She published this with her husband. It's called Five Things to Pray for Your Spouse. We're going to link to a couple of her books actually in the show notes. Y'all are going to love her. Amanda and I sure did. But um this episode kind of our goal was to kick off Lent with y'all and talk about Lent a little bit, what it is, and then also Ezekiel, which are two big things to kick off in the course of one hour. But I'm really excited for y'all to hear it. So, let's get right to it. Melissa Krueger, welcome to the She Reads Truth Podcast. We are so so happy to have you here. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here this morning. I was looking at your kind of like pre-in notes and I saw that you are currently studying stories of salvation in the Old Testament which feels like broad and yet specific. Yes, it has been so exciting. One thing I love about studying the Old Testament is just you see God's plan unfolding through all these different authors but clearly the same author. Yeah. And so it's this beautiful, if I ever doubt scripture, is this just all made up? When you read the Old Testament, I'm like, this has to be true because it all relates from, you know, hundreds of years later, the story is still continuing in the same way. And that just doesn't make sense any other way than a divine author working. Yeah. It's so exciting. Well, I'm so curious. I mean, you've been studying stories plural. So, like which like what are you on now? Or like which story that you studied have you just like had a hard time getting away from? I just this morning was looking at David and Mphibichef again, which you know, don't you just love to say Mphibichef? It's like such a fun name. Um, oh, we love that story so much. So good. And you know, I'll just give a teaser. I mean, it's just such a beautiful picture of the gospel and such an image of who I am and yet I'm invited to feast with the king. And so, I'll just leave it there so it'll make people go read it. Okay. So, y'all listening, you know that this is our first episode, not just of our Ezekiel study, but Lent. It is Lent. And technically, you know, this releases on a Monday, so y'all know that, or maybe you don't know, so I shouldn't just assume, but a lot of us don't know. Lent actually begins on Wednesday. Wednesday is called Ash Wednesday and it begins the season of Lent. But y'all know, you do know I think that she reads truth studies typically start on a Monday and so that's why we're starting today kind of ramping up into Lent, but now we've already used the word Lent like 75 times. Well, that's I mean we're going to continue. We're going to continue to do that. But talk to us about like what is the season of Lent? Will you lay the foundation for us, Amanda? Yeah. So, I didn't really know or pay attention to Lent until I was an adult. And so, one thing to know is that if that's true of you, too, that's okay. This is Lent is not something you haven't missed like a big chunk of the Bible where Lent is where it says here's how you observe Lent and you better do it. That doesn't exist in scripture. And the funny thing is like if you have a sense that you're working from a deficit because you haven't observed Lent all your life. No, that's kind of the point of all working from a deficit. You're in the perfect posture for this season. So the season, like you just said, Rachel, it starts on Ash Wednesday and then it leads us up to Holy Week. And so Holy Week, if you know what that is, that is it begins on I always get this wrong. It begins on Palm Sunday. Got it. which is a week out from Easter and Resurrection Sunday. And then it walks us through kind of that that last week of Jesus' life and as he's walking to the cross and then to the resurrection. And so Lent is this season of meditation and repentance and just returning our hearts to the Lord. And so, you know, it's been observed for centuries by the church with a capital C. And it's something that some traditions really focus heavily on in their church calendar, in their year, and some traditions don't. And that's okay. This is no, the fact that we're doing Lent is no judgment on traditions that don't. But we see at Sher Truth, we see Lent as an opportunity to really intentionally focus our head and our heart, our eyes toward the cross, which is the centerpiece of our faith. Jesus death and resurrection is the centerpiece of the gospel. And so in Lent in this season, we want to remember why Jesus came. You know, we do that in Advent, too. But in Lent, it's a little bit different. Our posture is a little different. Because we really are focusing on why did Jesus come? He came to die. He came to save. Well, why? Why was that necessary? Well, because we are all in sin and we are dead. Scripture says we are dead in our sins. That's right. And while we were yet sinners, while we were dead in our sins, Christ died for us. And so we say that and a lot of us maybe in the church, we are really used to saying that in that concept, but we don't often sit in that because it's not a comfy place to sit. It's a lot comfier to sit in Advent. Yeah. Yeah. And so we do that by reading scripture. A lot of people fast either from like something nutritional or or sometimes from you know in the modern day a lot of people will like fast from an activity or even add on an activity. We talk a lot about that in our podcast with Annie FD Downs. We were on her podcast. That's right. So we'll link to that. It might be something that you want to listen to if you're curious about Lent. Melissa, what is your experience with Lent like either growing up or now? Like what's your relationship with the season of Lent? Isn't it funny? I grew up in the Methodist church and so it was definitely a church that followed the church calendar. But as a kid, you don't even notice what's happening. You know, you kind of notice the colors are changing up on the, you know, oh, maybe they're wearing different colored robe, scarf things. I mean, but I wasn't really very in tuned. I do remember Ash Wednesday. They always have a service and you know everybody's coming with their It's good for everybody to know just in case on Wednesday they see people with you know um it looks like dirt. I mean that's the only way to say ashes on their forehead. I remember fun fact those ashes that they put on your forehead are the um palm frrons from Palm Sunday the previous year. They burn those and it's the ashes from the palm frrons from the previous year. I did not know that. Yeah. Isn't that kind of like nice? I mean, of course, it would be symbolic and significant. Yeah, that is strange to see if you're not familiar, right? Yes. So, y'all did that though? Yeah, we did that. We did that. And then I can remember in college it's when we started giving something up. Like my whole group of friends, we were like, "What are you going to give up for Lent so that it helps you focus, you know, on something?" And then I did that exact same thing a few years later. I was like, "Why don't I add something in rather than just take something away?" And so it was like adding in I can't even remember the different things. It might have been memorizing a scripture trying each week up until Easter to memorize a passage or something like that because before quite honestly it had been a little bit like I'm going to give up caffeine and just these right sure like something that you kind of meant to do anyway and then like yeah which is I mean yeah I feel like all of Yeah. I mean, and the whole conversation has to be like couched in because everybody listening doesn't know the three of us personally that even as we like giggle about this that or the other like listen we don't know like we don't know like this is between you and the Lord and like your walk with him and like what he is calling you to and also like I think that even the three of us would all approach it a little bit differently right because if I give up let's say that I give up chocolate I have not made that decision but maybe by the time this I love um that may very well be a heart issue with me, you know, because I will be completely honest and say food is a heart issue for me and my eating habits are a direct reflection of what's going on in my heart, which is always, you know, spiritual. And so, yes, to what you said, Rachel, that this is between you and the Lord. And the whole purpose is not to accomplish something awesome. But guys, I abstained from you know bread for 6 weeks like seven weeks. That's not the goal here. The goal here is the fasting is a tool to engage our whole selves in this focus on the cross. That's right. I'll add in here just from the like functional church calendar tradition stuff a couple of little details. One is that the way Lent is set up and like we're having this conversation about fasting that that is typically it's the seven week it's like you know it's Ash Wednesday to technically Holy Saturday Easter Sunday actually is the first day of Easter tide a whole other exciting conversation but when we're talking about fasting it's really a Monday through Saturday fast and then sun every Sunday of Lent is a feasting day and so I'll add that in and then I also wanted to say that a lot of you um studied with us. I think it was last year. We did this study called faith and practice where we looked at what scripture teaches about spiritual disciplines and fasting is one of those spiritual disciplines. And in that study, and I'm just remembering back to those conversations that we had, we acknowledged and reminded each other that not one of those disciplines is the goal. Our goal is not Bible reading. Even Bible reading, even is not to fast perfectly. Our goal is not a perfect prayer life. Our goal is Jesus. And so if we make fasting our goal or Bible reading our goal, even in this season where it feels like it's a lot about Bible reading and fasting, we're actually missing the point. Like these are workouts. These are us lifting weights to get stronger, it is our exercise toward the presence of God. And it is an exercise. Yeah. Yeah. I love that, too, because it's a little bit of entering into Christ's suffering. And I don't know if you've ever felt like this. I felt like life circumstances as they've come along have been opportunities where Jesus says, "This is actually what I did for you." Years ago, we moved overseas and lived overseas and I felt like such a stranger in the world. And one thing that gave me consolation was this this moment when the spirit just made me remember Jesus left heaven for me. You know, he gave up the ultimate giving up. Yes. And so me giving up my friends and my home in America felt like such a cost. And it wasn't, you know, America is not heaven. I mean, I had given up what I loved and the people I loved to move with my husband overseas. But it it was like the Lord was like, "This is a little bit of what I did for you." And so the more we enter in to his suffering and feel what he did for us, there's joy. Oh, this is what you did for me just for me. You know, and it's just a beautiful thing. I know we're not ready to talk about Ezekiel yet. We will be. But what you just described, Melissa, is like a perfect example of a sign act, which is what happens in the book of Ezekiel where we do, and we'll talk about it, but he you physically lived something out to remind you of a bigger like a physical living metaphor and it reminded you of what God did. That's so cool. We'll we'll get to touch back to that, which will be fun. And so I know that you told us Melissa sort of your history with Lent, but what does it look like now? Like as a grownup, like what does the Lent season look like for you? And I I know that I'm typically not good at like stopping a question so that the guests can answer, but I want to tell you that like I mentioned that a lot of our friends were asking questions and the questions that they were asking were things like, well, what if my church doesn't celebrate Lent or is Lent uniquely Catholic? You know, like why is it okay to not celebrate Lent? um all of those questions. So, I'd love to hear from you. What does it look like for you as an adult? And then, you know, what happens if somebody's church doesn't observe Lent? Well, I'm actually really excited to do this study because it's so good. I mean, I'm planning to do this actually for my lint. One thing, and this gets a little a little bit into Ezekiel, but one thing I was so struck by was it begins with an image not of how sinful the people are, but an image of how holy God is. And so what I want Lent to really be about is seeing God. You know, Job when you get to the end of Job and he said, "I had heard about you, but now I have seen you and I repent." So, it's actually seeing the Lord high and lifted up that helps me see myself. And so, I think in years past, maybe it was a more of a focus on me, even my sin, and what was wrong with me. And there's a right place for that. But I want it to be about seeing the Lord. Yes. And then how that reshapes who I am, if that makes sense. That's good. I love that. And also like that answers the question, is this for all believers? like it yes is seeing the holiness of God for all denominations. it is yes please yes please come and and even if you know to the question of you know what if my church doesn't formally observe lent like as long as your church is a place that they are pointing out the holiness of God be there do that and also like ask your pastor like I think that's a really good meaningful question to go to your pastor and go help me understand why this is a season that our church doesn't formally participate in because I think there's often really good answers and it's not like Amanda you know expl explained earlier, this is not something that's prescribed in scripture. It's described. It's sort of drawn from Jesus 40 days in the wilderness, that theme of 40 in scripture. And perfect transition to the book of Ezekiel. My goodness, the book of Ezekiel is like this tiny like a scale model of the season of Lent. It's I mean here I mean it's Listen every year Melissa when we do we do our Lent plan we're always like oh man Lent is so long you know because it is it's our longest reading plan of the year it's very nearly the longest season of the church calendar. Easter tide beats it by a day. the significance of Advent being 4 weeks and then Lent being seven and then Easter tide being like seven in two days. Like it feels like it puts everything like I don't know that we should say that it ranks things in order because that feels like I'm getting into weird territory. But that the celebration of the like the living Christ gets the biggest part of the special parts of the church calendar. Yeah, that feels right. Yes. Yes. But I will say that Ezekiel, the book of Ezekiel really does model that like, oh, this is, oh, we got more judgment. Okay. Okay. We're going to talk more about sin and idols. All right. Let's keep going about Yeah. I had some friends come and stay in our house a while ago, and we were going to be gone while they were staying, and they were going to have to stay in all of our rooms. They were missionaries. They were coming to visit. And I was stuffing things in closets just thinking, I hope they don't open that closet. And in a little way, I think Ezekiel and some of these themes are things we kind of want to stuff in the closet and say, I hope they don't open that up because what's going on here, you know, because I don't know. I I have no explanation for this. Can you can you talk a little bit more about that, Melissa? Because I think that that is, you know, we've been reading the Bible together as a community. at she reads truth for 10 years. This is the first time that we have read through the book of Ezekiel. We have read from we waited 10 years to do this book and I'm I'm going to be completely honest with you that was not an accident. We didn't it's not like we just forgot it was in the Old Testament. It's just it's first of all it's very long. Um it's also really difficult and dark and there are chapters where you're like what what is happening? But can you talk to us? Like you love scripture. We were just before we hit record, we were talking about we just love the Bible and we nerded out for a minute and like how why is it okay for us to peek inside this closet? Like how does it fit? Absolutely. In the bigger story. Yeah. And I think it's a little bit of there are parts of God's character that we're more comfortable with than others. And Ezekiel is going to show us parts of God's character. And I love actually what you said at the beginning, all of his character is on display at all times. So it's not like when we start to see he is really not pleased with their sin. I mean, he is really not pleased with what they've been doing. That's not just the Old Testament God that we sometimes think, oh, I want to get to like grace and mercy that I see in G. All of it is there and on display. And some portions we just see more clearly aspects but he is not changing. He never changes. So who God is is who God is. And I think this is not God's bad side. Exactly. Exactly. It is part of his goodness that is he is holy and it is part of all of these things are somehow reflecting his beauty. And when I have a problem, it's my limitation of understanding an infinite, all- knowing, all powerful, all good God. But the limitation is on my end, not on his end. If that, you know, and it was like, oh, and so my uncomfortability is probably more of a sign of what I'm not reading. It's been revealed. I just kind of sometimes avoid these places because maybe they make me a little uncomfortable, but it's all throughout scripture. I mean, you can't read Genesis without seeing these same themes come to life. Mhm. That's right. It's almost like we feel the need to make God appealing to people. And so, we want to show certain parts and right, he's okay with being who he is and showing all of himself to us. And so, I think we can rejoice in it. But, it takes it takes heart work for us to get there because in some ways, this is hard. It's not easy. I mean, every time you see someone looking at who God is, they're often, you know, on their knees, overwhelmed. You know, when you look at Daniel, he's right sick to his stomach. You know, he's he's overwhelmed by the vision of who God is. Totally laid low. Yeah. Absolutely. It's that thing where the finite and he is the infinite. And if the finite could define or comprehend the infinite, then are we truly finite? And is he truly infinite? Like, and it's a hard thing to like get okay with because since the garden, we've wanted to be like God and we've wanted to be we've wanted to be able to comprehend him and do what he does. And that is a sin issue. Like even wanting to fully put all of this in a box and make sense of it is not what we're meant to do and prevent discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to have it's good to have theological categories, but we always have to understand he fits in no box. Yeah. I mean, I am always learning and all my assumptions about God are challenged every time I read scripture. And I have to always be open to how he's speaking through his word rather than the nice little box I think I put him in. He's too big for that. He's just too big for that. Well, and even I know we want to probably talk about Ezekiel as a whole, but even this first chapter of the book I think is an example of what you just said because he can't, you know, we meet Ezekiel when he is in exile. So God's people have been exile. He is in exile. He is 30 years old, which is when he would have become a priest where he's still in Jerusalem. And instead, it's like, "Happy birthday, you're still in exile." However, that's when he receives his call to become a prophet. But it starts with this vision of the glory of the Lord. And he cannot, he tries really hard to describe it, and I think, excellent job, Ezekiel. Um, but he cannot describe it because it's a lot. And I was listening to an interview that Nancy Guthrie did with an Old Testament scholar named Ian Dugod and he was saying that like Ezekiel and like passages like this where there's a vision and we're just like, but I don't understand how do the wheels work? How do the And if y'all haven't read this yet, you get excited. You'll get to the wheels. It's a good time. we get kind of bogged down in things like that. And I think that that's an example of how I can get bogged down in a lot of places in Ezekiel where I'm like, why did this happen? I don't understand. Like why just like this? And so he says it's like an impressionist painting. Like you we see there's individual brush strokes, but like if you focus just on that, it's not going to make sense. Like you have to look at the whole. And so whether we're looking at chapter 1 where we're like, I don't understand what the creatures really look like, then it's like, well, the point here is that the vision, this is a vision of God's glory. And it's kind of terrifying. Yeah. You know, like you said, people end up face down. Well, after this first vision, spoiler alert, Ezekiel sits stunned for multiple days or seven days. Like it's like, you know, what just happened? And so that's by design. It's not that oh God didn't do a good job of writing his word or that we must need to learn more. We can always learn more. There is an element of we are to be in awe of the glory of the Lord. That's the punchline of chapter one, right? Okay. So, I'm trying to think about, you know, that I like to think about all the like logistics of starting a new book. Like those are the data points, but I also like I want to get through them kind of quickly because I want to start reading. And so what I'll just tell y'all listening and most of y'all I think have the Lent book in your hands. And honestly if you don't have the Lent book in your hands, this like we have said is a 7-week study. So I would genuinely encourage you especially for the season of Lent when a lot of people want to be more offline. This would be a time to get a physical book in your hands. And I know we still have some available. Actually I have in front of me a discount code. I'm going to share that with you guys. I know that seems like a little off to the left right now, but while we're talking about the book, if you use the code lint podcast, L E N T P O D C A S T, that's 15% off the books. Really anything in the lint collection. Get the physical book because there's so many like what you'll get on the app is fantastic and on the site. But what's happening in the book is the real like groundwork, the reflection questions, the digging in, and it gives you the chance to be offline, which is good. But that's and there's so many great spaces to write. I'm showing them like write what you're thinking and I just find sometimes I mean online is such a blessing. It can go with us wherever we are and all of that. So there's great things but there's something about taking your pen out and writing what you're learning that just makes us think differently. For me it was, oh, what's this passage telling me about God? What's it telling me about the Israel? You know, just writing out those list makes it stick so much more. And it's beautiful. I mean, y'all have done this is a beautiful book. It's beautiful so well. Our team is amazing. This study, you guys, it's a Linton study of Ezekiel, but it's called Come to Life. The art is really stunning. It is a beautiful book. I agree with you. And that it's an impressionist painting. Like the inside is sort of impressionist. I think the point, Ray, that you're making is that we put study tools in this book. So whether you're an analog person and you want to hold the book or you're an iPad girl and you want the digital version that you can mark up on your tablet, there are things I think that you're going to want to refer to as you're reading. That's right. Because the logistics of what's happening here is it's much different than like reading through a gospel where the narrative just flows. And this is reading a prophet like Ezekiel is a little bit tougher work academically speaking. You know, there's just more going on. And so I think it could be really helpful. Another thing too is that then because this is a seasonal book about a church calendar season, you have a record of what the Lord was teaching you and doing in your heart. Absolutely. For Lent 2022. So anyway, I love that I have Bible studies from when I was in high school and I go back and read my answers and just laugh, you know. And it's just great though to have this record of the Lord has been meeting me all these years. It's beautiful to have it. Yeah. And to know that, you know, to look back at your high school, you know, journaling and go like, and you laugh, but like God wasn't laughing at you. Like back in high school, he was meeting with you so intimately and pursuing you and growing you. And so like with that like distance, you get to see the work that he's been doing in you. Never once giggling about how about where you were in your faith with him. I think that's he's still not laughing at us. Isn't that nice? Because we're still trying to figure out because I think that I'm pretty silly sometimes. All right. So on so we talked about the study book on pages 14 and 15 and sort of kind of in that front matter of the book. It's that moment where we kind of go like, "Okay, everybody put your feet on the ground. Here's where we are." you know, like we're still kind of 593 BC, so like it's the exile to Babylon. Daniel is exiled to Babylon. So, also Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego. I always fail to remember their Hebrew names and I feel bad about that, but you know who I'm talking about. Come by it on us. That's the way that we were taught. Yeah. And then also Jeremiah is a contemporary. So, he's also prophesying at this time. And like Amanda said, this is and we'll read in in chapter 1 verse one, this is Ezekiel's 30th year. He's meant to at this he's been preparing and looking toward on his birthday becoming a priest and instead he is an exile. And when he has a vision of the Lord, it's not in the temple, but it's in Babylon, which is just incredibly jarring. The other things that like I laugh because in every book of the Bible that we put into a study book, we do this like this is how long it takes the average reader to read the book of Mark or like Galatians and you're like, "Oh, it's only 14 minutes." Like I should read it all the way through sometimes and remember that it's a book or a letter. So, it's funny cuz we've put that in here and it says 3 hours 39 minutes. Very specific. And I just think that's hilarious because I feel like it's like using the same math that you would use for Galatians. This is going to take me twice as long to read. Like it's just way slower going. I'm going to need some breaks. I'm going to need to get some coffee. Probably like in 14 minutes either. I'm like the slow I need the slow version. I am a very slow reader. So this is truly like the math of what it takes an average reader. And I just want y'all to see that. appreciate it for like because it does put us, you know, where we because we don't want to be only snackers of God's word. We want to be we want to take, you know, have big feasts of it. And I mean, like we just we keep referring to Pauline epistles like we we want to read the letter as a whole. In this case, I just want you to not feel like if you sit down and close yourself in a room for 3 hours and 39 minutes and if you're not finished with Ezekiel, I don't want you to feel as though you have failed. So, I love the like let's put our feet on the ground. So, we're in, if I'm Ezekiel, Yeah. I'm in Babylon, right? I'm not at home. You hadn't expected to be there. Definitely not at home, but I've been there for about four years, I think it says. Mhm. The text says. And so, and this his ministry as a prophet is not short. It actually spans like 22 23 years. So, this is not, like I said, this is not just a narrative where we're just going to plow through like here's some things that happened over the course of a couple years. This is story, right? And in the middle of this, not precisely in the middle, but this kind of the centerpiece of this judgment that Ezekiel is going to communicate on God's behalf is the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. If you are one of Ezekiel's contemporaries, like if you are an Israelite in Babylon, you're already exiled. this destruction of the temple and the exile of the rest of of the Israelites. Like this is as dark as you can imagine it getting. Like this is a really this is kind of the crux of their separation from God. I mean there will be a moment in Ezekiel where God's glory leaves the temple. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons that Ezekiel is so caught off guard in chapter one is like, why am I seeing a vision of the Lord in Babylon in the home on the in the land of my enemy? Yeah, that's good. Okay. So, Melissa, you know this cuz you have the book in front of you. We start day one, which is Monday. Everybody, if you're listening on the day this releases, today we actually don't start in the book of Ezekiel. We start in Genesis chapter 3 and the origin of sin. It's always a fun place to start. It's a great place to start, but it's an important place to start because if we don't know where we've come from, we don't know where we're going. And I think that if we start here in Genesis 3, and Melissa, I'd like to ask you to read that for us because I think it's worth giving some time to so that going forward in the coming weeks of Lent, we remember where we came from. M so not just in Genesis 3 but through the book of Ezekiel, we need to see and know what justice owes us so that we can see the width and depth and breadth of the mercy that is offered us instead. So would you start for us by reading that Genesis 3 section on page 22? Absolutely. Genesis 1-13. Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say you can't eat from any tree in the garden?" The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden, but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, "You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die." "No, you will certainly not die," the serpent said to the woman. In fact, God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." The woman saw that the tree was good for food and delightful to look at, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom. So, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made covering for themselves. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. So the Lord God called out to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" And he said, "I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid." Then he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree I commanded you not to eat from? The man replied, "The woman you gave to be with me, she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate." So the Lord God asked the woman, "What have you done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me and I ate." This is the word of the Lord. Yeah. Thanks be to God. Well, so thank you for reading that. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to begin this Lent season and I know it doesn't technically start till Wednesday but to begin here and I know that back in 2012 you wrote a book called the envy of Eve and it focuses on covetousness and so you walk us through like our sin issue of covetousness but you also don't leave us there. Can you talk to us a like share with us a little bit about that in relation to the Genesis 3 story and lent? Uh this it's interesting this pattern when it's talking about Eve she saw the tree it says delightful to look at that word is translated desire in some translations and it's the root word is commod it's the Hebrew word for but it's inordinate desire she saw that it was desirable she looked at it with a covetous heart she saw she coveted she took and she hid you know this is the pattern of unbelief and this is the pattern we all walk in and if you look at David great King David. We finally get our first king. What does he do? He sees, he covets Bath Sheba. He takes her and he tries to hide what he did. When we get to the promised land with Achen, first battle in the promised land, Achen saw a robe, some shekels of silver, he coveted them, he took them, and he hid them. This is the pattern because of Eve's actions that all of her descendants will walk in. And so, what's amazing, well, when we finally get to Jesus, he breaks the pattern. And here Eve was in a perfect garden. Achen was in the promised land. David was in the best kingship that we ever had. All succumb to the pattern. Jesus is in the wilderness. He's alone. He's hungry. And he obeys because obedience springs from belief. Oh man. We often talk about Easter in terms of the crucifixion. But all of Jesus's life was a sacrifice. You I mean all he walked every day for his life. And obedience doesn't get easier because you obey. It gets harder. The more you resist something, you know, the longer I hold something up, the heavier it gets to bear. And you know, actually, when you actually give into temptation, you feel this relief in a weird awful way. You know, you're like, "Oh, yeah." And he never resisted. He kept he lived every day for us. And he broke this pattern for us that we could not break ourselves. And it's like the whole Old Testament is revealing you need a new heart. You can't do it on your own. It's almost like let me give you the proof of all these generations, all these generations pointing up. You're not able to save yourself. And so this is what Amen. You know, in some ways Lent reminds us of we can't save ourselves. We cannot do it. and he has to intervene and he has to give us perfect obedience because we can't get it ourselves. And so I love that we start here when we're we're looking at because in some sense this is the first lament and all of us from the rest of life lament because of these first actions of unbelief and it's really our unbelief that we're dealing with. It's we speak so much about disobedience but all disobedience flows from unbelief. I don't believe that what you have for me is good. Yes. Yes. He's always attacking. That's always the lie, right? If God was really good, wouldn't he want you to have that fruit? Yeah. Satan, that's right. Is not very creative. He's very crafty, but he's not very creative. He uses the same I mean, I'm fighting that same lie in my own life constantly that I believe I know better than God what would be good for me. And so this passage just opens us up to why everything that's happening in Ezekiel is happening. It started here. Yeah. And even as you get to I mean right following that in our book is the key verse for the book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel 36:26. And it's not spoiler alert. It's not you'll get it right at some point. Don't worry. Right. I haven't seen that verse yet. Yeah. Yeah. It's not this is terrible. You've got it wrong, but you'll get it right. Don't worry. Let's try it again. But instead, it's I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And it's exactly what you just said, Melissa. It's Jesus, my son, will break the pattern. Everything is focused on God. Everything is God acting. Everything is God oriented. I will bless you. I am going to do this. And it's just this beautiful picture of I mean this is what what it all is about. Him rescuing us, not us trying to do it ourselves, which is exactly what like I know we just spent quite a lot of time talking about Lent, but like I think that there is a lie about Lent that it is about ourselves that it is about I'll get it right this time. Last Lent I didn't quite nail it. Last I failed. I look at it as the same way it would look like a New Year's resolution. No, no, no, no, no. this is about I will give you a heart of flesh or even if getting it right I think another version of that lie is I'm gonna get it right by feeling really immense shame you know like your your clarification earlier Melissa is so important that this is not just about seeing our sin and acknowledging our sin that's definitely part of it but it is first and foremost it is about beholding God's glory it is about being in awe of Jesus and his life of ministry and sacrifice and his ultimate sacrifice and the resurrection. It is that it is not, you know, if I feel bad enough about myself because that's the flip side of the same lie. Right. Right. Right. Um it's not like I mean if you just think about it in terms of our eyes, the aim of Lent is to not make our eyes cast downward but to cast upward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So either are like four to six beautiful passages in day one that follow the origin of sin account. What were you guys underlining in those? I mean I can color the whole thing with a Yes. That's where I was too. Yes. Go ahead. Read it. Read it. Read it. Yeah. I mean just And you were dead in your trespasses and sin. I mean dead. Yeah. in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that's now working in the disobedient. And what we see in Ezekiel when we're going to get to how the Israelites were living, we just see the deadness of it. Yeah. Um that it's, you know, I mean, when you are dead, you can't make a choice to be alive. You have to be given new life. There's no other option for a dead person other than to be dead. And so this is just what we are in and of ourselves. And so it's just such a helpful reminder and it it should fill us with compassion when we look at people who don't know Jesus. We are not smarter than anyone. We are not better than anyone. We don't have it together more than other people. It is only because God intervened in us. Yeah. I mean, like my non-Christian neighbor, it's not that she's just not quite as smart as me, and that's why she doesn't understand. You just don't know the right answer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, we're not Yeah. It says our battle is not against flesh and blood, but it's against the principalities. And you there's a spiritual battle happening, and we need God to intervene because I can't make if my children don't know Jesus, I can't make them alive. You know, I can't I can't do this. It's not my action. about convincing. Yes. It's Oh, that's so good. And I think sometimes we think, well, if I just had better arguments, if I just Right. If I could articulate this more clearly, let me try again. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's one other passage in that day one. It's John chapter 3, but it felt like it was about what we're reading in Ezekiel. And it stuck out to me. It's John 3:17, right? Following 16 that says, "For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." him. And it was just this moment for me as I was reading that day of just going like I think that so often believers and unbelievers alike, we look at a book of the Bible like Ezekiel and think it's always been about God condemning us, right? Because you read this and you go, "No, no, no, no." Like the impressionist painting, step back. This has always been about God saving us. Mh. And I think that like as we go into now days 2 and forward about like actually reading Ezekiel, I want y'all listening and y'all reading this week to remember and say to yourself, this is about God saving us. That's right. And Ezekiel that like interruption of it's God's compassion and love for his people. Ezekiel is a giant public service announcement that there is danger ahead. Like you are on the wrong track. You have gone too far. like this is not what you are called to. There are consequences to your actions. Like it is just over and over and I mean we've already talked about the vision. You guys are going to read that and it's going to be amazing. So we get the vision that we've already kind of touched on in Ezekiel 1. You'll read that. We're not going to take time to read that. That impressionist painting where you're like, "Whoa, I don't really understand the logistics of what's happening here." A lot of wheels at play. Yeah. But get excited. you just kind of step back and squint your eyes and you're like, "Okay, the glory of God. This is the glory of God." But in Ezekiel 2, God is commissioning commissioning Ezekiel and he says here, I'm going to start in Ezekiel 2:1. He said to me, "Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you." As he spoke to me, the spirit entered me and set me on my feet and I listened to the one who was speaking to me. So that the spirit is going to be a key player in this book. He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to the rebellious pagans who have rebelled against me." Man, those are strong words for God's people. The Israelites and their ancestors have transgressed against me to this day. The descendants are obstinate and hard-hearted. I am sending you to them, and you must say to them, "This is what the Lord God says." Yeah. Whether they listen or refuse to listen, for they are a rebellious house, they will know that a prophet has been among them. He says to Ezekiel three times, "Do not be afraid." Do not be afraid. Do not be afraid. Which we just talked about in our last study. And in this verse seven, speak my words to them whether they listen or refuse to listen, for they are rebellious. And so this is his call is I'm sending you to do this task. It's going to be really difficult. Mhm. And here we go. But like God is loving his people by interrupting them with this prophecy. Well, I just think that's so important that you're focusing on God's loving his people because we know that sin is always harmful. It's corrosive to our souls. And so when they're living in it, he's after them to change them for their good. Yeah. I mean, this is not, oh, you know, we were having a good party down here, God, and now you're coming in, and you're trying to take away all our fun. Yeah. Jesus said, I came that they may have life and have it to the full. This is not God being the ultimate killjoy. You know, he says, "In your presence are joys, everlasting joys in knowing God." And so, he's trying to save his people from a life that will only lead to them to misery. Yeah. I mean he is loving them by interrupting the life they think is best and saying no you are stubborn and you are obstinate and it is not going to go well. It's like our you know I mean if you have children or if you've ever seen a 2-year-old they're going to do dangerous things like run out into the street and you know a loving adult in their life says no don't do that and cause them back in and that's what the Lord's trying and the kid is like but that was going to be really fun how dare you. Yes. And then we turn the page to day three and open Ezekiel 3. And this is kind of the tail end of Ezekiel's call in verse. It's so weird. It's the whole thing. And I love it. I love this particular thing that's about to happen. It says, I'll just read it. It says, "He said to me, son of man, eat what you find here. Eat the scroll. Then go and speak to the house of Israel." I like that. Do this then do this. So I opened my mouth and he fed me the scroll. Son of man, he said to me, feed your stomach and fill your belly with this scroll I am giving you. So I ate it and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. And I don't know what is true or not true about whether he physically ate the scroll or not. I think I think he did. I don't know. But what we see here and what matters for us to like learn, I think, is that that this call on Ezekiel's life began with the spirit. It began with a vision of God's holiness. It began with a diet of the word. That sweetness, it kind of echoes forward or backward. It sort of echoes yes to Psalm 19 with David saying like that it's that your word is sweet as honey to my lips. So, we get this like eat the word. Here's the spirit. Here's the vision of my holiness. And then this call to be a watchman to be among the people. Also, like I think in the midst or among is used 116 times in this. Did you count those? I did not. That was something that I learned in my study. 116 times that phrase though is used and it's it's the significance of Ezekiel living among these people and also that the that God is among them. But it's this like my message of hope to you is not me from the outside going like, "Hey, don't worry. It's going to be okay." It's he's suffering. And we'll read about the level of suffering. I mean, in so much suffering that Ezekiel walks through among them as he points toward the hope. And it's such an interesting thing. It's, you know, he's saying you're not being sent to people who can't understand you. You know, we often think, oh, that would be difficult. You know, if you're being sent to a foreign nation and you have this language problem or culture problem. No, he's being sent to his own people. And actually, I think sometimes this is the hardest thing, right? To to even share the gospel with the people we love the most can be the hardest place to go. And this is where he's called. And I I don't know if you all noticed this. I circled the word listen. Ezekiel listens to God, but constantly people aren't listening to Ezekiel or there's the question of will they listen or will they not? And it's just it's something to look at when you're reading this week. The word listen if you even just notice it throughout the week. So true. And the responsibility is still on Ezekiel. Like how many times the Lord says whether or not they listen. I mean, he doesn't say it this way. I'm paraphrasing. That's not of your concern. Your job, your responsibility. And this this section in chapter 3 that is titled Ezekiel is a watchman. The personal responsibility there is so heavy like I wrote oof in the margin because it's like listen these words are true and important and you have a responsibility to speak them and even that it has consequences and it's this is a weighty weighty call. It's interesting also later in chapter 3 26 it says I will make your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth and you'll be mute and unable to be a mediator for them for they are a rebellious house and I wonder if he was relieved I know but for just a minute and so a little bit of unpacking here because I think it'll be relevant as y'all continue to read through Ezekiel Ezekiel was indeed mute we don't know exactly for how long I think until the destruction of the temple but it means that and God clarifies there anything I tell you to tell them you will be able to speak and you will be able to speak with me but you don't get to mediate for them and we do and of course this echoes forward to Jesus as mediator but here in this time it is God is going like no I just need you to be the messenger that's good he also gets to speak with his actions yes and a little fun thing in scripture guys buckle up if you aren't familiar with sign acts a little something sign. Yeah. So, s i g n sign act. I was listening to and watching the Bible project videos for these a while back and they called it street theater and I loved that. I was like, that's exactly what this is. God will in detail tell Ezekiel something to do where he is it's to get the people's attention for the people to go, what are why what are you doing? and he's acting out their reality, their spiritual state. And so we get some of that. And in chapter 4, we get our first one. And there are a few actually. They're a little silly, but also quirky, but also weird. It's very strange. And if you have the study book, there is I found myself like kind of dogearing this page on or this extra on page 17. So that when I came across something that was like, I think this is a sign act, I would go back Mhm. to the extra where we kind of explain what a sign act is and summarize the ones that are in Ezekiel just to see like okay is this one and what did it mean? But it was things like he was going to you're going to lie on your left side for 390 days and you're going to only eat this bread and you're going to cook the bread in a really disgusting way that's going to make it defile. Like it is I think it's supposed to be right audacious. I mean, is that fair to say, Melissa? I mean, it's incredibly odd, right? I mean, people are definitely going to be saying, "Why is he still on his left side?" It will get people's attention. Yes. Yes. And it Yeah. It's this even the the upper subtitle, which is not scriptural, but it says, "Jerusalem sees dramatized." Yes. It's almost like if you won't listen, maybe you'll look and see. I'm going to act this out. Yeah. I mean, so you're going to have to deal with seeing it if you won't listen to it. And and I do love this because I think it shows again how God is after us. I mean, even That's right. There are still physical elements of the gospel that are given to us in communion and in baptism, we have physical signs of our covenant that he lets us see and taste. And how how odd to be quite honest, when Jesus says, "You're going to eat my body and drink my blood." Okay. I I mean, we're still a little uncomfortable with with the Easter. I mean, this is Easter. You know, the last supper is a very odd meal, but it's this drama of no, no, no, you need my body and my blood to make you okay. And so Ezekiel is really this foreshadowing of Christ in the embodiment how his body is used to speak the message and Christ's body will be used to speak the gospel to us. Oh, that's good. I have other things that I want to talk about and ask Melissa about. I'm here. One thing that we notice going back to day three in really all of chapter 3 and the book of Ezekiel is that we see that, you know, God is basically saying that your call is not dependent on the reception of Israel. Your call is dependent on me. And Melissa, you have been in and among the publishing industry for quite a while. And so you really have probably observed over the past 10 years, you know, where it used to be, you know, that a book would earn its place on a shelf because of what it had to say versus now really you got like a prerequisite is having a platform is having like a lot of people affirming that they like you, we're your fan, and so you get to write a book. as you've watched that kind of shift take place and you know it's in the publishing industry but it's you know in our faces every day on social media we and algorithms and all of the things. What does it look like to be a faithful messenger not based on the reception or the plus ones of the world but just because God has spoken to us and asked us to go into the world. Yeah, that's such a good question. And I think it's rooted in that first commissioning where he says listen. So if I am actually going to speak a right message, I first have to be in the word myself listening. It is impossible or else I'll just give way to fear because he said I mean here's the bad thing for poor Ezekiel. He's told from the beginning the house of Israel is not going to want to listen to you because they don't want to listen to me. Great. Mhm. You're not even being told you're going to be successful. You're actually being told they're going to hate this. Yeah. And so I think when we can go in, wow, there's a lot of freedom then actually it's not me they're hating they're hating the gospel I'm trying to tell them. They're hating the the messenger who's actually God. And so when we can there's a lot of freedom in that. And I was actually talking to a group of teenagers and they were talking about some of their friends walking away. Just yesterday I was talking to them and I said, you know, when they get angry at you because you're still walking with Jesus and being faithful and obeying him and doing those things, just know it's not about you. The person they're really upset with is God. And so that kind of helps you deal with it that, oh, it's not that because I'm trying to obey God, I'm being mean. You know, I just said be really compassionate to them, be kind to them, and you might be that friend who's still there in 10 years when they come back. But the reality is when we speak truth, some it will be the message of hope and some it will be the smell of death. And that's just because it's how they're actually responding to Jesus, not to us. And we see this in the gospels. Not everybody loved Jesus. I mean, quite a few people don't like him along the way. I mean, they end up killing him, you know? I mean, so there are a lot of people who are really angry at what he's doing and who he is. And so I think often we think if I can just be like Jesus, people are going to love me. If I can be just like Jesus, they may hate me. And that's that's a good thing to remember. Being likable was not Jesus's primary concern. And the last reading day of this week is Ezekiel 6 and7. And it is such a good example of what you just said, Melissa, that like they're not going to like this. This is not like we are just here in the thick of I'm going to talk to you about your idolatry and all the ways that you're worshiping not me, right? It's rough. It's really rough. I mean, it is. Let's read a little bit of that. What I do love about these and we may be getting here Ezekiel 6 and7 is a little bit I remember when I I think I read Ezekiel for the first time in college and what I remember is this phrase over and over and over and over again. You will know that I am the Lord. You will know that I am Lord. You will. So the heartbeat of Ezekiel is you will know that I am the Lord. And it starts and it's repeated here in Ezekiel 6:7, in Ezekiel 6:10, in Ezekiel 6:13, Ezekiel I mean you. So I just think it's good as we're reading like to circle those as you read them. Yeah. Already because the heartbeat the heartbeat of the whole Old Testament is then you will know that I'm Lord. Then you will know that I am after you. So that the whole goal of here is not then my wrath will be satisfied and I will be apart from you forever. Yeah. I want you to know me. I want you to know me know about me. Yes. The whole goal was not to condemn you. The whole goal Yes. is to save you. And a primary way that he is doing this, that the Lord does this in Ezekiel. And goodness, if this does not relate to Lent, is he destroys their idols. Like there's this talk of high places in Ezekiel 6. Like, I'm about to bring a sword against you. I will destroy your high places and like your idols will be smashed and obliterated and you will know that I'm the Lord. I'm going to destroy and bring down these false gods and the ways in which you are worshiping them so that you can see that I yeah am the Lord your God and it's so painful but it's very purposeful it's very purposeful that you are going to remember who I am so that you can and they will know that I'm the Lord goodness I mean yes it is they will throw their silver into the streets and their gold will seem like something filthy. Their silver and gold will be unable to save them in the day of the Lord's wra. It's like, oh, all the things I thought I needed. They're useless when it comes to saving. Gold will seem like something filthy. Yes. Uhhuh. Yes. Yeah. Because it's not. Then you will know that gold is the Lord. Yeah. Right. Or that it's really significant. Then you're gonna know these are worthless things. They are just Yeah. I like to say a lot of times I think we spend our lives going after the big shiny basically gumball ring when Jesus is offering us the real diamond and we're like no no no no I want the big pink sucker that cost a quarter. You know we spend our lives chasing these false lesser things and he's like I've got something so much better for you. So much better. And you see that in Ezekiel there's this kind of the Lord not ultimately but kind of you know momentarily giving them over to this thing they think they want. You know in chapter 7 verse 27 it says I will deal with them according to their own conduct and I will judge them by their own standards. Then they will know that I am the Lord. And this I mean that's what we if you're going to talk justice that's it. That's what we're owed. It's like, okay, here's the standard you've set, and we're just I'll go ahead and use that measure by which to judge you. And this hearkens to Jesus where he says, you know, judge not. Yeah. Like the measure by which you judge others is the measure by which you will be judged when it's in your own self-righteousness that you're judging. And it again, it's just when you see the beauty of Jesus is the word become flesh. So, of course, he's saying the same things that were being said in Ezekiel. Yeah. I'm so thankful for a curated scripture reading plan. Yeah. Yeah. Because reading through the book of Ezekiel, we are going to find ourselves in this kind of same song, fifth verse situation where we will continue to hear the ways that that Israel has fallen short. And don't we see ourselves in them? Yes. Right. But I love that here in this last reading day of the week that we get to end with James 4. And even I'm backing us up one passage before that because like we said at the beginning of this, it's the same God, right? Like we're not getting a different Old Testament version of God, New Testament version of God. And when we were talking about that, so this is not God's bad side. But like we look here in Galatians chapter 6 and it says, "Don't be deceived. God is not mocked. For whatever a person sws, so will he also reap. And I Amanda, I love that you want let's do James 4. I think that's exactly right because this is the same God and Jesus is God. Like this is not part version one, version two or anything like that. And like you said, this curation of going like, okay, bring us here into the New Testament between the advents. Melissa, would you want to read for us one more time? One for the road at James 4. Let's do 4-6. You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So, whoever wants to be the friend of the world becomes the enemy of God. Or do you not think it's without reason that the scripture says, "The spirit he made to dwell in us envies intensely, but he gives greater grace." Therefore he says God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Amen. Yeah. Amen. But this is this is us that this like that this passage that where you know right before that James says what is the source of wars and fighting among you? Don't they come from your passions that wage war within you? You desire and do not have. You covet, you know. And so like that's who we are. This is who we are. But God gives greater grace. And we're going to see as we look toward the cross that that is the ultimate, you know, that's the ultimate display of God's love and grace toward us. Yeah. Is the cross of Jesus. That's right. Well, Melissa, I can't thank you enough for this time. I wish that we had a whole additional hour. So much fun. One hour was not enough time. You are a joy to speak scripture with. And like we've said in the past, it's so fun to meet people for the first time and have your first conversation be not just about God's word, but in this case about Ezekiel. We have bonded. This was like summer camp in an hour. Yeah, exactly. Trust falls and all. Well, friends listening, I want to thank you for listening. And I also want to remind you that you know our two goals. You know, our two goals on this podcast are to get you excited and to feel prepared for the week ahead of being a woman in the word of God every day. We are cheering for you. We are here alongside you and as a huge community, let's read the book of Ezekiel together this week. And then we also just love to model what it's like to just have conversations around God's word. And we invite you to do that, too. So, be readers of God's word, but have conversations about it. Talk to your friends, to your family about what you're learning, what you're reading. Process out loud in community. These are good things to do. And like we said at the beginning of the episode, y'all, this is a long study. If you do not have a book yet, we want we want to make that as easy as possible if that's something that you want. So, like I said, Lent podcast is a code that you can use at shopreadsruth.com for 15% off of anything in the Lent collection, but the study book specifically is what you'll want sort of as your as your study guide. as we read and go through, especially a little offline if possible this season. Is there anything else before we close? I mean, really just Melissa, thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This is a great way to start the day, isn't it? Yeah. What a joy to be in the word. And that's what I think we can all say is I can't say anything better to do during the Lent season than be in the word, meditating on who God is. What a joy. What a joy. That's right. Thank you. Well, next week we will be joined by our friend Lydia Brownback and we'll be covering week two. I see that you know Lydia. Yes. So, we're excited about that. And then Melissa, until next time, what do we tell our friends? Keep opening your Bibles. [Music]