Let’s Talk: Overcoming Church Hurt | Jackie Hill Perry, Melissa Kruger, and Jasmine Holmes | Word First

[Music] hello and welcome to let's talk a podcast from the Gospel Coalition podcast network where we seek to apply biblical wisdom to everyday life my name is Jasmine holmes and i'm here with my friends Melissa Krueger and Jackie Hill Perri be sure to check out the first two episodes of let's talk on witnessing and on contentment if you're enjoying these conversations we hope you'll subscribe to let's talk wherever you get your podcast and also recommend it to friends today we're going to talk about a difficult topic but it's one that has touched each of us in different ways and that is church hurt this topic is an interesting one for me because church hurt is actually the reason why I met my husband Phillip I was at a really small church where my dad was the pastor of preaching and I started dating another pastor's son and we were gonna get married and we had liked each other for like this is like a four year like situation and it crashed and burned miserably and when it did it impacted our dads relationships with each other our mother's relationships with each other and it was so hard because as a pastor's kid I felt like I couldn't be honest about how badly I was hurt by the break-up and how really not a great person during the relationship my boyfriend had been because he was another pastor's kid and so people would be like what happened like how did things go and I would just smile and like give a political answer like oh yeah it's you know I'm fine like sometimes relationships work out and sometimes they don't and everything's fine that's what relationships is for it's fine everything's fine I'm fine and I got really tired of doing that and so there was a PTC conference and it would take us out of town on a Sunday and I was so excited because I was like can I please go to this conference because that way I don't have to go look I don't have to go to church that Sunday I can skip it I can just go to the conference and I can taste him when I get back and that is a conference where I met Philip see bringing people to great people together t gc+ church hurt equals romance for me anyway but as a pastor's kid I do have a lot of experiences with church hurt but I'm curious to hear from people who come from different perspectives how you've encountered church hurt in the ways that you've dealt with that church hurt is a thing for me actually taught a workshop on church hurt I think it tgc maybe three or four years ago I think my scenario is long and complicated but it's basically that I was a part of a church in LA and one random Sunday we noticed that our pastor he wasn't teaching which was odd it wasn't like a teaching rotation like he taught every Sunday and so they told all the members to stay after and afterwards they told us that our pastor had fallen into sin and that he would be stepping down from the church so initially we're grieve were sad because I mean that's hard that's that to hear some hear more information about what had happened and so basically our pastor had not fallen in sin he had always been in sin and he had been using the scriptures to manipulate women into sexual things he was stealing money from the church him and the co pastor were doing the same thing so it just was a hot trash mess oh yeah Church art is a thing I think what it taught me really is it just made me feel like another male figure in my life was a liar like my dad that's what I felt like it was like I trusted you and I thought like you were the real deal but you weren't but not only that like the church fractured because you had one side of the church like this is our pastor he's a brother that needs to be restored and then there's another side of the church like no he's a wolf and a predator that needs to be exposed and so people that were your friend a week ago we're now on two different sides and in two different camps to see how we all stand when it comes to this one dude you're the pastor that married us is currently on trial for sexual misconduct with a minor so yeah I feel a lot of that yeah yeah it's so painful particularly particularly when it's a leader you know because you you listen to them give you the word week you listen to them teach and you're entrusting yourself to them in some way and that's I think been some of the most painful things that we've gone through has been when it's been with leadership you know and just you know you expect when you're working in a secular world you know with non-christians I expect nothing in some sense like I expect yeah that you're gonna peel back the layers and you're gonna see lots of dirt that makes complete sense I think what's been harder for me to reconcile is when Christians have acted in really ungodly ways and it's it makes you question everything yeah I mean it makes you say did you ever believe are you a believer and they may be you know I'm not saying people who do these things aren't but it just leaves you with this real confusion yeah yes orient yeah yeah and a real fear I don't want to end up there you know because as we all teach the Bible and we all right and we all do these things publicly I think one thing I realize is when a leader falls into sin in a way it affects people differently and so it makes me want to guard myself so much more and really make sure I am doing this because I love Jesus not because of any other thing that you can get caught up in it it's really it shows you the responsibility of what they've been given but also just the pain yeah how how do you guys think that that pain can manifest in other people's life so you said so you said for you it can make you want to be more guarded and more careful with yourself and the way that you conduct yourself how can it impact people in other way I've watched some people just hate the church altogether mm-hmm I mean they get burned and they just walk away altogether they say I don't need it you know it can I so believe you'll see a lot of people say I don't believe in God but I don't believe in the church and I had a pastor one time start a sermon off talking about how he had this good friend and he had a good friend but he got engaged to this girl who was just really unattractive and he was talking about it I was listening to him I was like what are you where's he going with us then you talk about how he confronted his friend and he was like your fiancee is terrible and all this stuff and I was like wow and he said it was actually himself with Jesus in the church and he said what I had to realize was that Jesus would hadn't engaged himself to the church and so what kind of friend could I be to Jesus if I didn't also love his bride and that image is never gone on my head of okay I might need to accept that the church is gonna have sinners and the church is gonna all of us are sinners yeah the church is gonna have problems but the church is who Christ loves and so it's not okay for me to hate the church it's okay for me to say hey this person was in sin and to deal with that but but what I do see and I think the tragedy of leaders is a lot of people get done with the church all together yeah I think what I saw is that a lot of the people that I did life with after the rupture of our church they many of them almost most of them left the faith altogether and I think is the church to blame for their deconversion no but I do think when when people especially young like this is La so most of our congregation were students at UCLA most of them being between 18 and 26 of 250 so this is a young zealous vulnerable children and so I think what happened is you know when they're receiving this word about Jesus from their pastor and they find out that their pastor does not love this Jesus what does that say about the power of the gospel it makes them think that this gospel wasn't strong enough to save you or keep you from pimping us so why should I believe it you know and so I think that's what happened is that the gospel no longer felt real and I think that's what happened I don't think it's even just the leaders I think that's a really painful thing but have you all experienced church hurt on him more horizontal level I mean obviously when the head pastor more than more yeah so it's kind of like not only can the rewards there can be sheep bite and cheap yes no you know in the mix how has that been a struggle in your relationships and the church growing up a lot of times I didn't know who to trust in the church because they were people who like I remember I was 16 years old and I we were out of town and when I was 16 we're still using MapQuest which feels like the printout touch yes okay yes much a long time ago so I was upstairs at the hotel were going to a restaurant my dad said run upstairs get the MapQuest and so ran upstairs was typing in and I my dad's email was open and I saw an email from another pastor and it was all about me and I was so I saw my name and so I sat down and I read it and it was all about how I was a bad influence on the other girls in the church I didn't have a gin sling quiet spirit mmm I was like leading our church in like youth culture and Nora billion because I was too loud and I laughed too loud and I wasn't gonna be a good wife because I was reading all this but I mean it was just like a diatribe and it was all about me it wasn't about me it was about my dad and he was using me to get to my dad but his daughter was one of my very best friends and this is when I was 16 so this whole big thing turned out and it was terrible and it hurts so badly and my dad handled it the best way that he could didn't handle it perfectly and I still to this day have a really hard time with relationships because I'm like well I don't know like are you just sitting on this colossal email where you saved up every single thing that you don't like when is it all kind of gonna come out because I feel like in a way because we're brothers and sisters in the faith and because our bond as the body of Christ is supposed to be so close when that contract is breached it just hurts so much worse than anything that ever happened to me with any other kind of friendship or relationship in my life especially when continue to go to that church and you continue to be part of that church that I'm when I was 16 I was still at that church when I got married to my husband at 24 so there just were a lot of old wounds that made it really hard to learn how to navigate relationships down the line you still hear that voice of that email in your head oh yeah yeah oh yeah the words of pastors sometimes I wish I could tell them how heavy they fall yes in people's lives totally for good or for bad I mean I knew a friend had done I think it was her dissertation was on women who go to get seminary education and a lot of it was a male pastor had said hey you should you should think about going to seminary you and it just encouraged her so it can be a really good thing just a few words like on the way to the bathroom in church hey have you ever thought about doing this and just that little thing put her on a trajectory to go three years to school yeah but on the other side I had a friend who wanted to be a missionary and basically a missionary on the field said some really hard things to her and it made her doubt whether or not she should be a missionary yeah yeah it can have this and that's where I wonder how do you deal with that voice I can get in your head saying oh I'm not a good enough Christian woman because I'm too loud or I'm too yeah and it goes back to what you said just reminding ourselves that it's not the entire like the Bride of Christ it's sinners within the body of Christ face in yeah and that's so true and wherever you go you're gonna be dealing with sinners in the body of Christ so how do we navigate that because knowing that ultimately Christ's bride is spotless is helpful but it doesn't answer all the way how we deal with his imperfect members of the bride right now so have you guys found what ways that you found are helpful to deal with that church her particularly when it comes to sheep biting sheep as you put it Melissa Jackie you know I think the it took me a while I didn't go to church for maybe a year or two just because it was it was hard to consider the thought of submitting myself to leadership again and being among people that may turn again that was fearful a fearful thing to me until I had moved back home to st. Louis and I connect it with a pastor it was a random thing I was at Chipotle I saw a guy with this Bible open it was a black dude that looked good would a white dude that look boring and I said they got to be Christians there's no way this isn't to Christians because that's just what Christians do as I came up to him I said hey do you go to church he said yeah I'm actually planning a church now in our first services Sunday and so I went to the church and I joined and when I met with the pastor one thing that stood out to me is he was so different than my other pastor he seems so much more vulnerable and guarded and careful and holy but then he he's like how do you feel about the church I was like I'm cool loner you know I don't like it too much but he took me to Acts when Paul had met with Jesus and how Jesus so identified with his church that he said you're not just persecuting the church of persecuting me and I think that convicted me to know I need to love and care for the church because Jesus loves and cares for the church and I think that had to be the foundation for me that didn't have empathy for the sheep and me to be gracious towards the Sheep and me to care for the Sheep because I'm the Sheep too you know and so if I want people to be patient and gracious and long-suffering with me I should be able to mirror that same kind of expectation yeah and I think it's it's what some of what you're saying too is I'm one of the sheep - yeah like the grace I extend that will always need back yeah I'm gonna say things carelessly not even intending to hurt someone and yet I'll do that and you know I just think of the Lord's Prayer you know when it says forgive us our debtors as we forgive us our sins as we forgive our debtors that there's and when Jesus is talking on the Sermon on the Mount yeah he's like you're have to forgive others it's it's like the whole New Testament is reminding us that yes the spirits come but I'm still gonna lay out what you need to do when there's sin in your midst because you're gonna need to confess you're gonna need to repent you're gonna need to give forgiveness the fact that all of those things are still talked about so much in the New Testament you know it's like we should know but when it happens it's so painful it's always shocking yeah it's kind of like you you know you know it's gonna be a part of relationship that you have to forgive and you have to ask forgiveness and glory be to God because I just imagine how how stunning my growth would be if I'd ever had challenging relationships in the church yeah the church has forced me to learn how to walk by the spirit therefore learn how to be kind learned how to be long-suffering learn how to be merciful like if everyone was easy I don't think I would shine that's right not saying not shine bright what you're good I'm saying like I don't think my maturity would be where it is if I never had challenging relationships and so I think it's a kindness of God actually to allow us to meet with people and be in relationships with people that force some goodness out of us yeah it is it is I'm thinking I'm thinking about a conversation that I had with a friend of mine it was a really new relationship at my current church and she is one like the minute one of those people would the minute you meet them you're like oh yeah IIIi I like you I think we're to be friends and we we had a rocky start after that and then finally like started connecting it was fun and easy and I'm an introvert so people that are easy for me is like I got a lot oh yes so we were all at a playdate we're having so much fun and her little boy was playing in the mud and she's white and I'm black Oh in case you didn't know that I was black and she said oh my goodness you got mud all over yourself you lookin at Jasmine's kids pool and it was just one of those like offhanded remarks that just like came out and in the moment I was like that and I felt myself immediately like going to that hurt space of like oh I guess we're not gonna be friends stuff like that and I remember I was talking to a mentor of mine about it just kind of asking her vice and she's like well do you like her like do you want to be her friend I was like I mean I I did like and she's like so that one thing and now you're not you're not gonna be a friend you're not going to talk to her again and I was like I don't want that I don't want that to be the answer I don't want that one thing to be the thing that like that separates us but I also don't want to talk to her cuz I'm gonna be really hard and awkward and putting in an awkward position and what if she comes back with and in confused or what if she says don't make everything about race and you know so every time my mentor would see me she would say did you talk to her have you talked to her yet did you talk to her that's good and finally finally I talked to her and her response was oh my goodness I'm so sorry that I said that thank you for telling me I am not honestly like grew up around a bunch of white people and sometimes when I try to diffuse awkwardness in multicultural settings I say really offensive things and I should not have said that and I'm sorry and it was very simple and easy like there were no excuses there was no making it all about her there was no and I learned a very valuable lesson in that moment which is when it I let my hurt know and past circumstances let me build a wall between me and another member of my church and me and another member of the flock and I could have not given her an opportunity to show what a spiritually mature kind thoughtful and eagerly eager to repent person that she was and it made me think about all of the other times that people have said or done things that I just took as well okay now we're not going to be closely well okay now we're not gonna be friends it really made me take those thoughts captive a little bit more and it's to know it's of no credit to myself really my mentor was just like girl yeah goat you know you gotta got to see this through how can we see things through with other people even when we've been hurt or even when we've seen patters of hurt in the church I love your whole story that you just told because what I love is how it was the church that helped you deal with you know this hurt that had come from a member of the church you know so I think one of I love what you said because having someone who was speaking truth into your life that hey you need to talk to her because the reality was she needed to change like that shouldn't be said I mean you know so it was actually loving I think it's hardest for me to confront someone on something when they've hurt me and it's different like if I see you you know gossiping about Jackie and it's hurting you know it's easier for me thing to confront it right but when I hear that you were gossiping about me or something like that it's a lot harder to go but I love how you have this mentor in your life who is willing to push and say have you done this really uncomfortable thing and then it brought this healing so it's it's an interesting thing I remember Jackie one time you tweeted what helped me get over Church hurt you know what Hilary would heal me from church art was the church yeah she says it better and I think that's so true that some of healing happens as we keep going yeah you know and you just keep saying you know I'm in this you know and I and what even what you were saying about bearing with people and being patient and kind those things can only be expressed when there's someone to be patient with you you can only bear with someone and love when you have to actually bear with them yeah and love not I do think that there are some church environments that are unsafe where where there's it's toxic its abusive its manipulative its sinful I think those kinds of spaces you have the right to disengage with and depart from because I think people have used or will use those scriptures to manipulate you into staying in an abusive church that is unhealthy and so I think oftentimes you have to actually grab a Christian or a person or a wise one that's outside of those circles to be able to speak into your life and say this whole little situation is messy and you can't even see it and so I think you need to pray I think you need to consult a therapist if need be you need to consult your family some wise people around you that can see what you can't see just because I wouldn't want people to use those kinds of texts talking about forbearance and love and kindness but you actually using it in a way that the Holy Spirit never intended that's a really good question how do you spot what's abuse versus what's normal bearing with you know in love kind of what's how do we distinguish that that's a really hard hard thing what maybe maybe this is the question what are some signs you know we've all seen churches that are unhealthy as a church what are some signs out there that the church is unhealthy and that you should maybe consider hey this is this church whole problem versus one person in the church who said an off thing or whatever from my experience what's the word a lack of transparency from the leadership so I don't need to know all your business but what are we doing with the finances Wow why is no one ever welcome into your home well why aren't you like like is there a plurality you don't have to have a plurality of elders but it does concern me when you're the only person and leadership and there is no one that you're submitted to I think those are huge when your pastor or the pastors or the elders are confronted with sin but do they repent or do they manipulate your words to make you think that you sinned against them for confronting them about sin that's huge is there a bully culture where once because I had one of my leaders or one of my mentors any time she confronted the pastor with sin he would then put seeds of things into other leaders to make them feel like she was a Jezebel like she just wants to tear down the leader she speaking against God's anointed so those kinds of things I think are huge signs of a leadership or a church that is not good yeah yeah absolutely those not showing not having the fruit of the Spirit honestly it's like what is your church exemplified by is there love is there joy peace joy is huge yeah absolutely do people feel like God will not love them if they don't do what their pastor says those kinds of things you know if I don't go to church will people be mean to me well they speak will they dignify me or is it like it's just a controlling type situation first Timothy 3:1 it talks about the qualifications of the overseers the above approach silver minded self controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not violent but gentle not quarrelsome not a lover of money he's the manager's own household well there's all of these qualifications for both elders and deacons that Paul lays out and when those things are lacking when those things are missing I think that that is a sign of an unhealthy church and perhaps once one of the qualities that I like so much in that passage is that of gentleness and I think so often you know we were talking about it we want our pastors to be great teachers and all of these things but we don't necessarily look for someone who's gentle and kind and compassionate and then first Peter talks about not being domineering but being an example and that our pastor should be someone that we say not blindly yeah but I want to be like them yeah you know I want to love people like they love people I want to serve people and we think about Christ who said the greatest among you will be the one who serves and so they should be these servant hearted men that we're looking for and it's really easy to just think oh but this guy is really entertaining when he teaches right and you know he's really good I want to listen to him but sometimes we don't look at the character of their lives and that's always concerning because what's going to come out of their mouth is really the overflow of their heart and so we want to see those other actions that there really are an example not perfect yeah but that they're an example we can follow I have a question Jasmine told the story about how she confronted her friend their friend repented what do you do when you confront a friend in the church or a person in the church and they don't repent or if they do they say they do but they don't change like they continue to sin against you what do you do my brain is buzzing like me on science Matthew 18:18 Matthew 18 which is scary because it involves a lot of confrontation which is not my favorite thing don't know if you can tell it took me how many weeks talk to my friend probably three months but she did I did it let me see I'm trying to get to Matthew 18 okay if a brother sins against you go and tell him his fault between you and him alone if he listens to you you have gained your brother I got to stop there okay it was nice not listen take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses if he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church and if he refuses to listen even if let him be to you as a Gentile and and a tax collector eeeek which is like it Matthew 18 always put stuff in perspective for me too because sometimes I'm really offended and then I think what am I so if like is this such an offence against God that I'm willing to carry it out all the way to the end of this Matthew 18 take it before the church or is it so petty that I would be embarrassed taking it before the church because it's an instance where love can overlook this fault thinking about the wording in 1st Corinthians 13 about not taking offence and so that kind of helps me balance my I don't know my expectations of people in my offense at people is this a Matthew 18 like I need to go to you and if you don't want pen it's going to the church and we're gonna have to just make this a huge deal where you may even be excommunicated or can we talk and agree to disagree and still maintain fellowship that's good without bitterness and that's a good question cuz a lot of people get into a lot of big battles about what we would call disputable matters yeah I think Romans 14 talks about disputable matters and so there are some places that we can all spend their time fighting that aren't simple you don't necessarily like school choice or you know whatever man yeah you know paleo yeah yeah yeah waiting are you seeing your kid glue yeah I mean that kind of stuff that we can get almost like you're not holy right you're not doing it my way I mean so we all have to check that at the door yeah you're right but then when it is son and I've been in a situation where we've done the confronting and there was even an acknowledgment of sin but there was no actual repentance yeah yeah of turning from the sin and that's been really hard for us to walk through and to know how to do that well just the other day I've been reading through the Sermon on the Mount which is so convicting I'm just like Jesus has not tamed he says hard things and I was just really confronted with loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you and I don't think I've done yeah I don't want to consider anyone my enemy that sounds mean and I don't I don't really yeah but sin does persecute we don't want to call it that heavy but some of the things people do their sinful actions in some sense or persecution to us and one thing I realize I hadn't done for this person well is just pray for them and I was really convicted that I need to spend time and it may go to the Matthew 18 and all of those things but just praying but the Spirit would do some work in their lives and that the words that have been said would finally go into the heart and the confrontation that's happened would be heard and that life change would happen but it's really painful when you feel like yeah your your giving lip service to yeah that was bad I shouldn't have done that but it doesn't feel like there's any hard change I think what's helped me is remembering that sanctification takes a long time and sometimes I want people to be sanctified quicker than even I'm being sanctified and so I it's kind of helped me be patient like this person has some trauma they have some maturity there might be some chest some things that they just have to grow in and am I willing to be that friend that walks with them as they carry their cross the crucifixion set took a long time for Jesus to die and so I'm just not expecting a quick death sometimes I just have to be willing to carry it with you which is hard that's not easy is irritating actually but I guess I'd do it with the hope that it honors Jesus and that even if no one else notices it that he'll honor it when I see them I have to think that way or I'm just gonna give up can't ask one question and now we're almost at the end because we've talked about church hurt and that's obviously what this sessions on can we also just share how the church is a blessing because I know it's you know I know it's we show band talk about how this issue it is good to acknowledge that because you know it's it's like you do oh she's got some blemishes yeah but I think it it might be an encouraging way to end even just to think through the blessings we've experienced in the church why is that what we need even if it's not perfect wouldn't even be a Christian way out the church because the church is the one who talks about him about Jesus and so the reason I'm able to believe is because somebody out of God's church told me about Jesus I don't think I would know what I know to degree that I know it without the church you know I the even though I went to that raggedy ratchet Church that was a hot mess in it I was being discipled by a woman who I lived with for two years who made me get up and get in my Bible every morning and taught me how to read the scriptures and taught me how to pray and taught me how to be a person that lived what I spoke I remember my disciple if she told me she said you're on your way to being a very popular hypocrite because you're able to communicate in such a way that people think you know what you're talking about and that's you're living it she was like it's my job in your life to ensure that you live what you communicate that's what the church does you know so even in all of that turmoil God had a remnant for lack of better words that help me grow um the church is blessed me just the story that I even just told about my could have been a story of church hurt and it wasn't it was a story of restoration and school friendship and that blessed me I can't even describe how much that blessed me and what a blessing she has been to me in being able to talk to her about something that hurt me and be heard and know that she's the type of person who will do it for me if I need it that's something else that we haven't talked about you know I hope I never am but I could be part of somebody else's story Church her was good and I want to be able to be humble I want to be able to be humble enough to hear and to change course and to repent if if the conversation never comes my way yeah yeah and I think that that's a good part of the church is that it requires that of me nor is that of all of us yeah that's what FEMA is no that's good and I think you know I think sometimes I've been in the church so long that I forget what life without the church looks like and you know I sometimes watch yes we're one of the few families or whatever they'll be going to church in the neighborhood and sometimes I will admit like wow it'd be nice to have sunday off too yeah that's terrible true true confessions thoughts but then you know a watch when suffering happens and when life falls apart and when you know someone gets cancer and when hard things happen and then you know you have 20 meals brought to your house and you have people who are praying and sitting around praying for your family and other people don't have that that's true you know they they their community is like their kids sports team or maybe the college they went to or the community service that they do but we have a family you know it's really a family who you know when everything happens they are there yeah and that's I think sometimes I forget other people don't have anyone that's true you know I know if everything happened to every family member in my life someone in the church would have me over for Christmas dinner you know I mean it's the or people and they do while we love him perfectly they do love yeah they do that was a lighter note too into heavy conversation on so I'm really glad that you asked that question think now we're going to talk about favorite things to end it on a high note today's favorite thing is what is your favorite season and why of course fall [Music] summer no no I mean the visit maybe if you live yeah talking you know put the little scar phone with the little boots and maybe a t-shirt like you can dress kind of warm but not super warm where you sweat you know it's just cute it's cute it's cute I didn't do it this year but I have to admit that in the past I have been a fan of the pumpkin spice latte I didn't do it this year though it felt amazing I didn't do it I was like you're gonna don't now okay no more graduating leggings and pumpkin spice lattes my favorite is my can the first time I can put on a fire in the fall and don't hear the crackle that's house owner privileges right there yes thanks for listening to this episode of let's talk next week we'll be talking about actively fighting sin you can subscribe to let's talk through Apple podcasts Spotify stitcher or wherever you like to get your podcasts check out other shows from the Gospel Coalition podcast network at PTC org slash podcasts the Gospel Coalition connects Christians to resources that apply the truth and beauty of the glass bowl to all of life [Music] you [Music]