Melissa Kruger on Teaching the Bible | Word First

[Music] hi friends welcome to the byfaith podcast I'm your host Christine Hoover and I'm so glad you're here each week this season I'm talking with a guest about how they're using their unique gifts and talents in their specific context and season of life my prayer for you is that by listening to these conversations you'll be encouraged challenged and equipped to step out by faith using your particular gifts for God's glory today I'm thrilled to welcome Melissa Krueger to the show Melissa wears many hats she's a wife to Michael who is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte she's a mom to three she works as an editor at the Gospel Coalition she serves as the women's coordinator at her church Uptown Church in Charlotte and last but certainly not least she is the author of several Bible studies and books the latest of which is five things to pray for your kids Melissa's publisher the good book company has been so gracious to sponsor today's episode Melissa has written five things to pray for your kids where she takes us back to the Bible to show us what God's will for children is so that we can pray in line with that she selects 21 key areas of spiritual growth and character development and for each one she gives us five short prayer prompts drawn straight from the Bible that we can pray for our kids for more information about five things to pray for your kids go to the good book.com I listed Melissa's many hats that she wears but at heart Melissa is a teacher who is passionate about helping other women know God's word so I invited her on to the show today to talk specifically about teaching we chat about how she's cultivated her own gift of teaching and how she's helping other women learn to teach I love how Melissa says we're all teachers in some way because we're all called as Christians to do what Jesus said to go and teach all that he's commanded us we also talk Melissa and I about the insecurities and discouragement that she's faced as a teacher and what she's learned specifically through those things Melissa's joy and enthusiasm is pretty contagious I love her so much so I know you're going to love this conversation so here friends is my chat with Melissa Krueger thank you so much Melissa for joining me today on my podcast it's great to be here thanks for having me you are one of my favorite people I think I don't know if I've ever told you that that but every time I'm around you I just really I really like you oh I feel the same way I was laughing thinking about when we met which it's always fun to meet when you're on a panel with like four other people and 600 people in the audience but it was so fun I was like I love everything she's saying well I appreciate that I've told you about how I felt about that panel so it was at the gosip Coalition a couple years ago and uh were you facilitating the panel I think I think I was you did a great job you were really helpful okay well thanks we won't we won't rehash it um but can you maybe for those who don't know you who are listening will you introduce yourself yeah I'd be glad to um I am I'll start with my family um because I always start with my jobs and I sometimes feel badly um I am married to Mike who works um for Reformed Theological Seminary here in Charlotte he is president but he's a new testament Professor um and then we have three children Emma John and Kate my oldest just turned 18 so I'm it sounds terrible to me um and I can't believe she's gonna leave me next year after after all these years of getting to be her mom does she know where she wants to go she does she really wants to go to UNC Chapel Hill here in North Carolina so she'd only be about two and a half hours so we completely approve that we think that'd be great and then I work at my church I've worked at my church for 10 years I've been on staff doing women's ministry and then I also have worked for the past couple years with TGC um as an editor for them and now I'm doing more content in books for them and so I like both jobs and they both feed each other um but sometimes it's a lot of balls to be juggling um yeah as you know you wear a lot of hats because I'm thinking your husband's job probably requires you to be present at certain things and then your job your jobs and then you're a mom so there's a lot of hats you're wearing and I would love to know in what ways you think or I would love to know what you think your sweet spots are like what really about those things makes you come alive that's a great question I feel like the Lord has been in this process of slowly showing me what those spots are that I really love to to do and I would say primarily I have always felt called to teach I was actually a high school math teacher in my other life is what my mom used to say and now I understand why she says that um so I I love teaching high school I love teaching kids so I realized that really translated well into teaching the Bible I love doing that and and what I've even learned that I love more than being upfront teaching is I love teaching through writing Bible studies for women so I was so um cared for and loved on by people like K Arthur who took the time to write studies so it taught me by doing how to study the Bible and so I'm so thankful for that so I love doing that for other women and kind of giving back to them what was given to me but I've also really found I love doing leadership development and that I didn't know about you know I think that's the one the door that the Lord keeps opening up I like sitting around with a group of women and brainstorming about how we can do ministry ideas how can we move from hey mentoring is a really great thing to making a whole system in our church so we can help that flourish you know I love getting to the practicals I guess so often we talk up here about yeah women's ministry is important or this is important I'm like but how do we do it so I really like getting in the nitty-gritty and saying how do we actually live this out in the church so that's those are the two main ones is your role at the church full-time no um it's supposed to be um 15 to 20 hours a week which you know it's ministry right so I feel like those are those are always um because the tough thing with Ministry and the wonderful thing about Ministry is so often your job is people and so when there is a crisis you can't say well that didn't really happen on my scheduled time for work so it definitely es and flows and I I'm trying to do a better job of forcing um rest into my schedule and I am not good at that so that's that's something I'm learning you are probably a strong do you have strong leadership gifts as well as teaching I think so I would I I I would say I love leading women from below rather than above if that makes sense and I even really like my job description is that I am not the captain of the ship running where we're going as women but more I'm there to help women use the gifts they've been given um to go out into the church and I'm there to support them so I for instance one thing we do is we have a lot of Outreach Bible studies um a lot of women don't even know what curriculum to use where to begin how do I do child care and so I I'm not the one leading the study I'm the one talking to them on the phone so that they can learn how to lead the study um and help them find good resources so I feel like I'm underneath trying to help women which I'm really more comfortable with that then kind of directing the ship if that makes sense this is what I'm thinking as you're talking is when I was in my 20s these were kind of things that I could see myself doing I had no basis for that really besides that I had dipped my toe a little bit into Ministry because my husband was a pastor but I'm thinking for somebody who's in their 20s they're wondering how did you get these jobs how did you get on staff at a church doing women's ministry because a lot of churches don't hire women to for for these kinds of positions they're they're volunteer how did you get to be working with the gospel coalition how did you get to start writing and writing Bible studies how did you get where you are I like to call myself The Accidental writer The Accidental women's ministry person The Accidental editor for sure I mean I majored in math in college nothing I did professionally was leading me down this path I wouldn't have even thought to go to Seminary and I I kind of look back I feel like women today would make that choice um I didn't know it was really an option that I could have chosen 20 years ago um and so I will say I'm like you I was married to a man in Ministry so I was full bored I wanted to do it with him that was a great thing for me to get to be alongside him and I'm the wife who was saying tell me what you're learning what is this you know we we're having all these discussions and things but all of it really happened just by slow small steps within the context of the local church and I'm really thankful for that um that the first part of my Ministry started by um really working in the local church and that happened by just being a young stay-at-home mom who wanted to share the gospel with people and so four of my friends and started an Outreach Bible study to our preschool and we all taught we all shared those roles and we all did that for 13 years of just inviting everyone at the preschool to the study and each year a few new people would trickle in and we really saw the gospel go out through that but my pastor they decided they wanted to have a woman on staff and he called and asked if I would apply for it and I did and slowly that led to just more Ministry and things things like that but honestly the writing that is coming out now was done 10 years ago I'm really slow to get published um a lot of it I was writing for those Bible studies because I couldn't find materials yeah um now we have a lot more materials that are wonderful out for the church but if you remember back if you go back 15 years there weren't many things available and so that's why I started writing it was just completely because there was an empty spot um it and I'd have women you know you minister with moms too they can't make it every week so I started writing because they would miss a week and I didn't want them to fall behind so all of it was just little slow steps that the Lord brought me along um and all of them have been a surprise to me I mean I really thought I was going to spend and I wanted to minister in the public school system and run a fellowship of Christian athletes and work with high school students that was my vision so Ministry was always in my vision I just thought I was going to do it more in a public setting Public School setting not a specific church or Ministry organization so I'm so thankful for what I get to do but it is a shock to me so what to say to some someone who wants to do these things I would say just Faithfully do them in the context you are and just see what the Lord will do um whether if you're if you're at a workplace maybe you start a Bible study in your workplace at lunch or something like that so I just feel like the Lord has opened doors um in really sweet ways but yeah the first time we did that Bible say we had five women and four of them were the leaders okay you know so things starting small yeah I think is really normal and that was for two years we did that and slowly the Lord made it 30 and 35 women in your living room and things like that but it it's just amazing how he gives us the training grounds in these small places I I think that then allows us to do it in a larger context but he's building us through that process and so I love looking back and saying wow he really did this and I'm thankful well also I think you took a step out to say I'm gonna invite people to my house you just mentioned it was in your house which I didn't picture that before but you invited them to your house and that takes a really for a lot of people that is the biggest step is just to say I see a need and I'm going to be the one to meet it do you remember those that moment when you made that decision kind of went went through your head yes I can actually remember I was I lived in kind of a different side of town than most of my friends so what I really remember is I was sitting on the playground at the preschool by myself and no one talked to me you know all these moms were running around it felt like everyone had their friends and I was just kind of sitting there with my two-year-old and I it and so I'll say this it actually the first thing it started with was prayer and loneliness and so I was sitting there and I just said Lord You've clearly put me in this preschool will you open doors um so that I can get to know women to to share with them and then in God's grace a couple of my friends did move near me and they entered that preschool and so all of those things happened but yeah it I think it starts with the Willing heart to say Lord will you use me here I'm not just at this preschool randomly it's not what I would choose I'd really like to be with all my girlfriends at the preschools they're at um so will you take this place and use it and I almost tear up just right now thinking about what happened in those 13 years of that preschool and what a beloved place it became for so many and we watched people come to the Lord through it so that he it was not I thought it was me just having to kind of deal with not having the money to live in the other part of town but the Lord had a purpose in where my child went to preschool and so I look back and I say wow he knows exactly where we're supposed to be and I'm thankful that's so great I love how that intersects so many things I've seen in my own life and I see in others I was just talking to a young mom just the other day and she said because I'm new to a place I just feel like I want other people to feel welcome because I know what I've experienced being new and I think that's where God calls us often is because we see the need and other people don't see it they don't feel the same conviction about that thing like what you're saying and so sometimes just seeing the need is often God calling us to be a part of the solution somehow and just to be faithful to do the next thing which is what you did I'd love to talk more about the teaching aspect of that though because you're you now have invited women into your into your home and and now where you are now you do a lot of teaching and a lot of equipping of other women who are teaching I would love to know how you first knew that that was maybe a gift that God was cultivating in you and how did you then cultivate that gift that's a that's it's it's a little bit actually embarrassing when I think about it when I look back I became a Christian um really through the fellowship of Christian athletes at my local high school and I think I started leading a Bible study two years later I mean I can't even imagine I kind of cringe to Think Through what was I saying in that Bible study I mean I I'm sure it was full of so many things that were not correct but I I think it was just the Lord showing me that this is what he wanted me to do I mean that you know it's almost like I came to Christ and all I could think of is now I need to teach someone else about it um and and really so in some sense it's for all of us because of the Great Commission I mean not everyone's going to be a formal teacher UPF front you know in front of people but the Great Commission is go and teach all that I've commanded you know so it's discipl making is just about turning to the person behind you and saying hey here's what I've learned about Jesus let me tell you um that feels a lot less scary than teaching you know we say oh I'm just looking at this text with you and saying hey I heard this about this and and we're all having a conversation about it and the holy spirit's our guide and so from that point really from 16 on I can't think of a year I wasn't leading a Bible study in some in some way um and so the Lord again kept bringing opportunities and and I would say I was eager to learn so when I'm looking for women who who are probably gifted with teaching I would say they tend to have a really strong desire to learn themselves um that they want to understand that they're naturally curious about the text maybe that's a way that they don't just read it and say hm that's interesting they're like oh no what's a Samaritan why does it talk about the Samaritan woman here why why was it at noon that he you know they're talking I mean they're looking at the details and and trying to understand the bigger story a lot of the times and so when I see women like that in my Bible study I'm like oh they need to be teaching they're also often I would say this might sound bad the ones who are more critical of poor teach teaching um often you know I I will say or feel frustrated if a Bible study isn't getting to the Bible maybe that's a way to say it like if the Bible study is just everybody sitting around talking about their day those are the women who are like why am I here this is a waste of my time well that's a woman who probably needs to be teaching and she because she wants to get people in the text she doesn't want to just sit around and talk about you know the weather or whatever she wants to dig deeper and so sometimes it's the ones who might find problems in what's going on that I think are the very ones who maybe that's their gifting um in in the church and so you know but but that's all the way the Lord opened the doors for me was just through openings that continually arose and just a strong desire to do that with it's probably my happy place to be sitting around with a group of women talking about the Bible and I would say I actually like fa teaching through facilitating better than I necessarily like giving a 45 minute talk I want to hear what you think about it and I want you know that helps me really care for my women even better to kind of hear them engaging the text rather than me just teaching it so that's kind of my favorite time I love how you're bringing up different types of teaching because we we think often of teaching as someone standing at the front of the room like a pastor does but teaching can happen in in discipleship as you you said it can happen in a facilitating discussion as you described and it can happen through lecture teaching uh so I would love to know as you pinpoint those women if you're seeing women in your church in your role as the women's Minister and you think they might have that gift how are you cultivating that how are you pulling them out and giving them opportunities to practice and to see if that's something God would have them to do that's a great question and I love this part of my job um one thing we have our Outreach studies that's kind of the basis we don't have a big Bible study that meets at our church we have neighborhood or preschool driven or some way that they're related maybe an elementary school that they're all in and we um just encourage women to look at where the Lord has placed them in their city and say could you start an Outreach Bible study is there a friend from the church who lives nearby and you all start it together and so that um is really kind of a low-key way to begin it's normally in their home it's maybe five to 10 women one of my good friends who has never led a Bible study ever in her life she put um her neighborhood has a Facebook page and she just went on the Facebook page and said I'm starting a Bible study in my home you're welcome to come and she amazingly all these women came and then she called me and she's like what am I supposed to do with them what do I do now exactly and so that was an instance when where she Saidi really don't feel comfortable teaching and so she actually did a Jen Wilkin study they did the study and they watch the videos that was a great intro for her into it the next semester she led you know but that was a helpful way for her to begin to see okay first let's just get everybody in the room talking about the Bible the next semester she led herself um and has the Bible study has continued to go on so that's the first step in our church kind of is to lead something like an Outreach day then we have women's Sunday school um our Sunday schools are done in eight-week rotations so we have times when women teach women and what's great about that that's more like standing up and teaching probably 60 to 70 women so that's a little bit different it's a little more um teacher driven less facilitator model and then the third step when I see who's doing that pretty well you know and I say oh wow she's really gifted at this is um we often on our Retreats have women from our own church teach so I took three of those women who I could see were gifted in teaching and the three of them each taught a 145 minute session at our women's retreat so it works out great because here we are sourced in our own Community with three women who can do a retreat talk that's great I love so I was kind of you know just helping them all along the way and trying to help with outlines and trying to help with how do you do this well um but again it's the behind encouraging rather than because if I'm always the one teaching no one else will ever learn so sometimes saying no for us in leadership is one of the most important ways we can develop other women in these roles um is saying no I'm not going to do it let's let someone else do it and help them do it that's to Me The Way We Grow women leaders is always investing back so that we can have those future teachers in our churches that's so good I'm also thinking though about churches that don't have any formal women's ministry they don't have a women's Minister on staff so maybe there's not a point person for anybody who is saying hey you should come and do this or let me help you do this so what would you say to women who are in churches that they may they feel this kind of com compulsion to teach and to lead other women but the pastor or maybe there's just no formalized way that she can see of how do I go about doing this or maybe there's not much support from leadership so what would you say to a woman like that well and when we began that was kind of our situation there was no woman on staff um and so that's why we started these Outreach studies they actually weren't in our church and and this may sound bad but we didn't even know to ask permission we just did um and I think that's okay because Jesus has given us all authority to go out and make disciples so I think it's okay um to just start a neighborhood Bible study and then um if your church is willing to be involved and support that's wonderful but hopefully that's allowable yeah I hope so exact because I think sometimes as women we can be so fearful to do anything but that's why I always want to encourage women all authority Jesus said has been granted to me and so I tell you go and make disciples and So based on Jesus's words I think we can just go and start and that might be two women that we have and we're just walking through the Book of John with and what a wonderful thing to get to do I have one friend who has a Muslim friend and they have been studying the Bible together for five years just going through the text one on one you know so she is teaching even though it's not not this Bible study of 500 women or whatever but she is Faithfully teaching this friend the scriptures and it's wonderful to see so you know I would just pray and ask the Lord where where do you have me that I can do this um if you feel that desire and and I also always want to say it's also okay if you don't feel that desire right not everyone has to be you know a formal teacher but I do think we all teach in some way even if it's you're sitting on a park bench with a friend or over a lunch you know just chatting we're all giving the word to each other in certain ways just through our advice that we give what we're talking about when we we talk to one another I think of that Colossians passage let the word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another of course that means we're not going to all stand up and teach a big group but I think it's just a lifestyle of speaking into one another's world that we all need um and builds our own faith in the process as we are sharing with others what we've learned what are some of the obstacles that you have faced just in your own personal ministry as a teacher maybe I'm thinking of uh I'm thinking specifically about things that other people might be surprised about I think as I watch other women step into more of a teaching role within our church they always are surprised sometimes to find oh you know I maybe don't get a lot of feedback or how do I know that I'm doing this in a faithful way and so what are some of the things for you that you faced I would say I usually after I sit down feel like I said nothing of value and why on Earth did they have me stand up here and teach so I didn't realize how insecure I'd feel I mean that's kind of horrible to admit but I just talked to my own women two weeks ago on our women's retreat and I sat down afterwards and thought all those things they just rushed to my head of did you even make any sense you know and and I will say so let me put that let me step back and say I think that's the spiritual attack I was unprepared for the fact that our enemy hates truth going out and so for me the way the attack comes is of and feeling like I'm not good enough um I'm not funny enough I don't know you know whatever it could be I'm not entertaining enough right rather than just letting me be content that the word went out yeah and God will do what he will do with it and that the goal is that the women see Jesus not think I did a great job or you know that they go home thinking about scripture not the great example I gave and just I I think I think that's the thing I think the second thing I didn't realize is how much work it would take the best teachers make it look so easy like it just flows off their tongue and it's really helpful living with another teacher because I see how much work my husband puts into so it's not just that I'm really really slow at it um he faces the same thing he prepares prepares and prepares and when he stands up there he makes it look so easy and I you know kind of want to throw my shoe at him because it makes it look so easy right um and and then I realized oh it what you see in a 45 minute talk took hours to prepare hours an hours of study and you left so much on The Cutting Room floor that you never even got to talk about um in those 45 minutes so I I think it's both the um I thought I'd be more confident in teaching God's word by now and I thought it would come a lot quicker than it does so do you ever get discouraged about teaching or just in Ministry in general yes absolutely sometimes it's just you know is the and I will ask myself this regularly is this the best use of my time and Gifts you know is this what I should be doing um and so there's just discouragement that can come too with the the workload that we've all been given I mean you know as as you have as well just as a pastor's wife and a writer and all of these balls were juggling I think sometimes discouragement comes in that you can spend a lot of time in Ministry on something and sometimes see no fruit from it I mean some of the most painful things are people my husband and I have invested in for years and then sometimes they just walk away you know from the faith all together walk away from your church and then walk away from the faith all together and that's discouraging you know you just are thinking did I not love them well enough did did I do something wrong that caused them to walk away now I know that's not true but it's just where the discouragement can come in that if we had done something better maybe they wouldn't have walked away or things like that but I think Ministry I think there's a continual battle for discouragement and I don't even think that that's wrong I think that's why we hear when God is talking to Joshua he says don't Fe for I am with you be strong and courageous we still need that message today in Ministry our giants look different but they're still there um and I think one of the big ones is discouragement and that is that not having courage to go forward and so the Lord says you know he doesn't say it'll be easy but he says I'm with you and that's the best news we have is that he's with us in those moments so how do you talk yourself through those moments of great discouragement how do you keep going for that's a another good good question um I think I am getting more quick at realizing the LIE of the enemy and fighting the Battle of my mind and I can sit around and choose to think about all that's wrong or I can do what Paul told us to do in Philippians I mean he is in the midst of jail and he says whatever is lovely you know whatever is praiseworthy think about these things and I can be so much stuck in my head thinking of all the negative things and I'm just reiterating them the way my family is not going how I want it the way my Ministry is not going how I want it the way my day isn't going how I want it and then I hear from this man in jail think about lovely and praiseworthy and excellent things and and I realize the battle really is in my mind and so I'm learning to fight there rather than just try to get my circumstances neat and tidy so I don't have to trust God that's my Temptation that's what I would have done 20 years ago yeah maybe maybe one year ago who knows just try to get everything worked out maybe I need to get a more man manageable schedule maybe I need to stop doing this or doing that whereas first I need to step back and say what am I thinking about and ask myself some different questions um can I trust God with this not going well or being difficult or being uncomfortable and that really helps me with the discouragement to just hear again the truth that he is with me and he will never leave me and that it's okay to be afraid but just know where I'm clinging in the fear that helps me that's good you mentioned managing your schedule that is something that I struggle with a lot where we are in our life stage with I have two teenagers I have a younger son than that you know all the things all the hats that we described earlier that you're wearing I'm not wearing those same hats but similar and I'm coming up against my limits more and more and more and I don't like that but I also struggle to make decisions about where I put my time and energy so I would love to hear from you with all the hats that you're wearing and opportunities to serve how do you know when to say yes and when to say no because the NOS are often to good things right so how do you do that yes yes that is getting harder and harder I think probably for both of us in our worlds like these are great opportunities that sometimes we're having to say no to um one thing that has been really helpful for me we actually do a training at our church for leaders on trying to discover what you're uniquely gifted at meaning what do you bring to the table that no one else brings to the table and it doesn't mean that you don't serve another area is that's not a like get out of jail card because changing diapers in the nursery isn't your unique gift that's not the inent at all it it is more and I think this becomes increasingly important as we age um because we are getting more and more uniquely gifted in certain things um and I think the younger I was I was still trying to figure out what those were yeah and so now I really try to say am I one of the only people who could do this okay maybe I really need to consider but if it's something like teaching on a retreat are there other women who could do that yeah there are other women who could do that um for you and me both I am uniquely gifted as my child's mother I'm the only one they get right so sometimes that's gonna require things of me I'm my husband I hope I'm his only wife so that's a unique gift I hope so too only I know that would be bad you know there are certain things that we know we're called to maybe that's a good way to put it that we know I'm the only person in the whole universe that can be his wife and can be my my children's mom um and so then the other is questioning what is really in my calling that the Lord wants to to use for his kingdom um I often ask myself am I doing this out of guilt or fear I am very prone I I'm a I'm a woman who hates to say no so I am often doing out of out of just a fear of disappointing someone one you know I don't want to let people down and I've had to just get tougher and say you know I me saying yes to this is always me saying no to something else and so really trying to figure out is this really worth saying yes to and that does like you said mean saying no to some really good opportunities um there was one book series that someone wanted me to edit and I I had that fear I don't know if you ever have this of well maybe no one else will ever asked me to write another book again so should I do this you know and that's a great thing someone's asking you to do but I ended up saying no to it because I actually didn't feel uniquely gifted to do the series they wanted and I I didn't feel like I I I knew therefore because it wasn't in my Center Spot that it would take a lot more work for me to do it and you know they found someone to do it who's great at it and that's exactly what she should be doing um and so I think sometimes we do let go of good opportunities but they might not be good for us and I think that series for instance is better because she's the one doing it than it would be if I had done it um but it's it's a fearful thing to say no um at at some points but those are the things that I try to Think Through the the last one is is this a good thing that would be better at another time or another season of my life so sometimes I'm saying no to certain things because right now for instance for me speaking outside and traveling now is not the best season for that most of the time because my kids are actually home on the weekend it was actually easier for me when my kids were younger because I was with them all day so I was kind of like yep I can be gone on the weekend yeah that's okay now they're in school all day so me being gone on the weekend is actually harder so I say no to that more just in this season but in another season I hope I can say yes to a lot more yeah it takes for me trust that God is going to give me the opportunity in the time that I can actually do it I want to do all the things at the same time and right now I'm not patient and I'm not trusting that God's going to give me the opportunity later on when I do have more more time to do it so that's really good oh I find it so hard I find this to be one of the hardest things yes yes we're learning right I want to go kind of go back a little bit to when we were talking about women in the church and you and I have been a part of some conversations recently about women in just in the Evangelical world and their role in the church and I would love to know just for you to get to speak to if there are any pastors listening I know my husband at least will listen so he can speak to him but what would you say to men about men in leadership roles about women using the gift of teaching and Leadership I would say do whatever you can um to encourage them in it and all that takes is sometimes just noticing it's not like you have to do a full program to how are we gon to support women in the church I I can just think back to small ways um men gave encouragement to me along the way and it was really really simple but it made a huge impact on me in fact I was at a gathering probably about six months ago and a pastor whom I respected immensely came up to me and he said hey I really appreciate what you write on the Gospel Coalition please keep writing that meant the world to me it took five seconds for him to do that you know it was so um small of a gesture but it really encouraged me for months of writing and so I think um women often just feel so encouraged by you saying there's a place for you here and so when you know Pastor simply says something like hey tell me how the women's retreat went how how was your time teaching just showing general interest really means a lot to women and what it communicates is I think your ministry in the church is really valuable it's not lesser because it's to women it's not a you know siloed over there that the men never know what's happening in women's ministry um but it's really valuable it's really important and I want to hear what's going on with it I think just showing that kind of respect and concern can be really helpful that a pastor can do and really help the the ministry of women flourish and I always think about it was Paul writing to Timothy or sorry it was actually Paul writing to Titus um to say have the older women teach the younger women it was two men talking about women's ministry so I'm hoping that pastors are having the conversation make sure this is happening in your churches so I I do you know want them to be thinking through how can we help spur that on because Paul was doing it back in the first century so hopefully we're going to keep that Trend up and that pastors are going to talk about how are we making sure this is happening because our churches will be so much stronger if we have older women teaching younger women and we need it desperately in our churches absolutely because I I think my fear is the younger women are going to leave and go find that elsewhere or they're going to use that gift elsewhere outside of the church because there are opportunities for them but I really my I'm just super passionate about this of wanting to see women in within the church the local church being supported encouraged by their p pastors and leaders to cultivate their gifts and to use them okay so final question what are the joys for you in serving oh um I sometimes have to just step back and say what an amazing privilege to get to do what we do you know I get to one be a Christian sometimes I think we lose sight of like the Lord chased me down redeemed me for himself called me to himself saved my soul sent his son to rescue me I mean that's amazing and then he calls us into building his church you and he invites us into that and he says you get to come and labor for something that matters I mean think about that everyone who does not know Christ is continually laboring for something that will not last it is like a yeah know building a sand castle at the sea it is beautiful for a day but it will be washed away and you and I we get to build for eternity I mean what we are doing is Gonna Last um what a what a great thing I mean that does it fills me with joy to say okay this is hard yeah I mean the Christian Life in scripture is just described as a race a battle and child birth let me say that alone helps me because sometimes I'm like yeah this doesn't feel as joyful as I think it should but when I remember how it's described but all of those activities are incredibly hopeful you know you run a race you hope that you're going to win the prize when you're in a battle you're hoping for peace on the other end and when you're in childbirth you're definitely hopeful this baby will finally come out so there's the hope of the joy that will come um that propels us in our race and in our bath battle and in child birth and so I think today may feel really hard for a lot of us in the ministry world but there's the hope our rest is coming and our savior is coming and we're going to go to a place where we're going to be celebrating all of what he did in us and through us and in his church for all of eternity and we're gon to be singing those songs of just wonder and amazement and that hope actually think gives us present Joy today that as we look forward to what will be we can rest assured that what we do today matters that our labor in the Lord is not in vain and you know I think that's the greatest hope we can have because I think what really weighs people down is they feel like they work and they work and they work and what have I done they're in Ecclesiastes you know that all everything's Vanity Vanity Vanity and we actually get to live lives that aren't that way so that brings me joy when I look when I look at step back and look at the full picture that is beautiful that encourages me today Melissa thank you I appreciate so much your time and your ministry we haven't talked specifically about your books so the latest one is there's a new one coming out I think right for kids yes yes praying for children yes five yes yes it's a five things to pray for your children so um that one's just really going through scripture and praying for your kids it's just to help parents yeah and it's excellent I actually got to see it and it's an excellent resource it's really just go straight to hear some things that you can pray for your children gives you the verses I loved it I think it's be a great resource but then also I just recently did your Philippians Bible study called in all things right yes that's it that's it and it's a lot about Joy a lot about the things that you were just talking about made me think of Paul saying to live as Christ to die as gain like I'm going to stay here and be with you it's better for you I'm G to serve you so that reminds me of your Bible study and that's a really great resource as well you have a lot so we'll link I'll link to it in the show notes all your different uh Bible studies and books that you've written so thank you so much for your time oh thanks so much for having me this is so fun to get to chat friends don't forget to grab a copy of Melissa's latest book five things to pray for your kids I also really love her latest bible study on the book of Philippians called in all things join me next week as I chat with darina Williamson darina calls herself a bridge builder and I can't wait for you to hear about how she's doing exactly that in her hometown of Nashville until then friends have a great week and keep walking forward by faith [Music]