Parenting with Hope with Melissa Kruger | Word First

You're listening to the Family Disciplehip Podcast, a podcast of training the church. [Music] Hey, this is Adam Griffin and I'm here with my wonderful co-hosts. First, Mrs. Cassie Bryant. How you doing today, Cassie? >> I'm so good. Ready for spring break? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Me, too. And speaking of uh my spring breaker, no regrets. Uh I'm here with my wife, Chelsea Griffin. How you doing today, Chelsea? >> I'm uh happy to be here. >> Yeah. >> Even though this is this is my 2 a.m., but I'm happy to be here. >> That's true. Chelsea just woke up for this. This is and and short short sleep. Really not enough. >> I'm going right back. >> Yeah. >> Not to not to sleep. I meant to the hospital. >> Okay. Yeah. It's like we're going to keep this conversation at a nice nap level hum and then said you're right back to sleep. Well, today >> our listeners asleep. >> Yeah. Speaking of a lot to stay awake for, guys, today we're honored by the presence of author and Bible teacher, Gospel Coalition extraordinaire Melissa Krueger. Everybody, how you doing today, Melissa? >> Doing well, thanks. This is like the most welcome I've ever had on a podcast. Clapping and cheering. Wow. >> When there's three of us, it can we can have the effect of like a crowd, you know? So, >> it's fun. I'm gonna stay around. Y'all are fun. >> Yeah. Well, stick around. Let's keep talking. What do you think? Let's keep going. Uh Melissa, for anybody who doesn't know you and all that you do, could you tell us about you and your ministry and maybe just a little bit about your family, too? >> Yeah. Yeah. I work for the Gospel Coalition. Um I'm VP of Disciplehip Programming there. I'm married to Mike. Um he's a he works at Reformed Theological Seminary. Um and we have three kids, a 23-year-old, a 20-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And um I'm really thankful. They're so much fun at this age. So, it's a good season. >> I love it. Okay. So, you've got a new book out called Parenting with Hope. Will you share with us the story of uh wanting to write this particular book uh to for parents with teenagers? >> Yeah, I mean the story is I actually didn't want to write it. So, there's there's that. Um I I really um found this topic to be super hard to even think about writing on because um I'm the parent of some kids who have just moved out of the teen years. Um, and I'm walking with a lot of friends who were having a lot of different experiences of the teen years. And so I am very sobered to know that these years can be really difficult and really hard at different points. And so I um, but what I also realized is there's not a lot of books from women on the teen years. So part of what I wanted to write was hopefully to give some encouragement um, in these years. I was a high school math teacher in my other life. Yeah. My mom used to always say that in my other life. Um that's what I used to do. And I realized I had the benefit of making a lot of mistakes on other people's children first. And that was a real blessing to have studied teen development. And there are some real facts out there that really can help us as parents. And sometimes once the kids are past five, we stop reading books about parenting. But there really is a lot to learn about teen development. So, I was trying to hope hope to take what we know about teen development, what we know about biblical truth, and combine them for parents just as a little introduction to some of those topics. That's awesome. >> I'm so glad you wrote it. The subtitle is raising teens for Christ in a secular age. I wonder if you could share with us, you know, this age is different. We've talked a lot about a secular age on our show. We talked about how secularism is impacting parenting. One of the things you talk about as it regards your kids entering those teenage years is that a lot is changing for them. You know, and they are changing a lot. You also talk about how you have to change as a parent when you become the parent of teenagers. Uh I wonder if you could share with us as your kids changed, what did change about you, Melissa, what changed about the way you parented as your kids changed into teenagers? >> Yeah. Well, I always like to say the principles remain the same, but the practice often changes quite a bit. So, if I am parenting my 12-year-old like she's two, we're all going to have a lot of problems because, you know, your 2-year-old does not need a 10-minute discussion about why running into the street is a problem. They just need to hear don't run in the street really firmly. It's bad. That's it. You know, they they really can't take more. But when it comes to teenagers, what I started to realize, oh, is I need to actually have a conversation with them, not just a rule. With the 2-year-old, you lead with a rule. And that's totally fine to be like, "This is what you don't do." With a teenager, I like to lead with a conversation and then talk about, but we're still going to have rules. The principle is that there are still boundaries in this home, but the way we go about discussing those boundaries is going to look a little bit different when they're teens because guess what? They're going to be 18 and soon they're going to be out of your home and making all those decisions on their own. So I I want them to enter into that with me so that they can understand those principles when they go out and are making all their decisions on their own. >> The first priority you cover in the book is that parents themselves would be rooted in God's word, which is something we actually talk about a lot on the podcast. We talk about one of our buckets of family disciplehip is modeling. That we would be modeling for our kids what it looks like to have relationship with Jesus. And so how would you specifically articulate that um that God's word should be foundational for parenting? >> You cannot share with others what you do not know yourself. So and teens more than anyone can spot a fake. So if they hear with your voice, oh yeah, the Bible's really important, and they never see it in your lives, they are just not going to actually believe it's really important. um they they know they have a thermometer of what's going on in the home more than anyone else, which I know this is terrifying, right? This is terrifying to me, too. Like, so don't I mean, but it's it's the reality. So, if I want to be equipped in the moment to talk through scripture with my child, it's not normally going to be over a nice little idyllic Bible study. It's maybe going to be in the car going to soccer practice and some big issue comes up that they're finally willing to talk to us. I need the word implanted in my soul so that it's ready to go in that moment. It's not really going to happen a lot in structured times in the teen years. So, I've got to be feeding on it myself if I'm going to have food to give to my kids. >> That's good. >> You're right. Even as our kids get older, we've got some pre-teens in our house, the Griffins and the Bryants, and it's like they're they can sniff it out. They're starting to ask questions and uh about our own hypocrisy or, you know, whatever. And it's it's like all eyes are on us. They're watching. You've split the book up into three sections. You've got a section on basics, battles, and blessings. In the blessing section, you talk about God's word, prayer, and the church. Uh, one of the things that you mentioned, I'm going to quote you. You say, "In every season of parenting, God is teaching us about himself. Would love to hear what are some of the things you learned about God through parenting." Oh, >> I've learned how deeply patient he is with me. Um, because I have learned how impatient I am with others, you know. Um, I can find myself completely rattled, you know, because the lunch boxes and the socks and all the things or all the places they're not supposed to be and all of the sudden, you know, you would think someone had murdered someone by the way I might respond or whatever. And and I realize how quickly I can become impatient with the people in the world I love the most. like these are my most favorite people in all the world and I and I am so so in need of grace that I I can find impatience rising the surface and I just realized God's never impatient with me. Oh my goodness, he I have sinned against him every day for however many years I've been alive and he continually invites me back. He's that gracious and that kind. And so, >> um, it's it's it's shown me my need of it and my lack of it. >> That's good. >> Yeah. It's humbling to receive that and because I don't know if everyone is like me, but you can carry a sense of shame or then feel like you deserve him to be impatient, you know? >> Yeah. >> And it's like, well, I don't deserve your patience, so it's hard to receive that patience and then to model it down for our kids. For sure. I'm going to quote you again. I love that you said as your children become teens, it's helpful to allow them to become stakeholders in the family habits. What are some family habits that you think we could invite our kids into more ownership as they grow older? >> Yeah, I think really in the teen years wherever you're seeing like familywide problems, um it's a great place to maybe have a family conversation and invite them into those decision- making. So maybe it's teens are sharing a car and it's causing friction constantly because that, you know, that kid didn't fill up the gas tank or that kid, you know, took the car when they weren't supposed to. Whatever problems are coming up, I I think it's helpful to have a family discussion. Hey, what would work best? What can we all buy into? What should the rule be in this situation so that we're living at peace with one another? Um it could be you know one kid child C cannot get down to the table at in time for family prayer devotions or whatever and you start saying hey this seems to be really hard for you what can we do to help this situation get better rather than in the moment when the heat is up and everyone's stressed. That's not normally the best time to talk about it again with your 2-year-old when they're misbehaving. you talk about it right then because the 2-year-old will not remember that they messed up yet tomorrow. A teenager, you don't have to talk about it when the heat's up. That's actually probably the worst time to talk about it when they're late and everything's falling off of them and they're totally stressed and their like shirt doesn't match and they're they're crying because everyone's going to think they're the worst kid in the world because whatever they're wearing. >> Not the best moment, but in a calm moment to say, "Hey, I'm noticing in the morning it's rough. Can we what what can we do better now so that we can prepare for tomorrow morning? That's how we can bring the temperature down when they're kind of a little heated. >> That's a good example. I think you talked about in the book how your family regularly reads the Bible and prays together in the mornings. Um I love that. Um can you just give us a little window into what that looks like for you guys and the role that plays in the disciplehip of your family? Yeah, these were um times we were really fortunate. All of our kids had the same start time. They, you know, so that that is something that's a benefit. I realize a lot of families don't have that. You've got elementary, middle, high. So, it just happened. Our kids all had the same start time. So, we just said, "Okay, we're going to be down at this time of of the morning." Um, and this was a really short time. I always want to stress that to people because they're like, "I can't get my kids down to do this." It was like 10 minutes. We would read a devotional of some sort. We use a lot of different things through the years. Um, we'd read that and we'd pray for one another and that was really all it was. Um, and sometimes we just read through the Bible. We'd read through like the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of John and just have a short time in the word and in prayer. And again, it was not perfect. I always say aim for patterns in your home, not perfection in your home. >> Um, it was the pattern of our home. didn't happen every day. >> That's great. I bet that has really blessed your kids more than they >> could realize in the moment, but they I think they're going to look back and go, "Wow, my parents made that a priority." You also talk through your family's prayer cards in the book. Can you tell us about that and what that looks like? Help us all. Help us. >> Yeah. I encourage parents, this will take 10 minutes of your time, five index cards. We had we had three kids, so this worked out well for us. If Yeah, you can do it however you want. each Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, you know, Monday might be my husband, Tuesday might be me, Wednesday, you know, each kid had a day and so their name was at the top of one card. Then we put a leader, could be the principal, could be the president, could be um, you know, some other, it could be a pastor, whatever that we prayed for that day. Then there was a missionary that we support that we prayed for. And then there was a current event or maybe a friend who was struggling that we prayed for. So every day there was a card. So when it's Monday and we're all sitting around at that table, it's oh, it's John's day. Okay, John, what can we pray for you about this week? And then Kate, will you take the card and will you pray for all the things on the card? So here our kids are learning, oh, we don't just pray for ourselves. We pray for other people. We pray for missionaries. We pray for current events and things going on in our world. Again, if you if you do it on the front end, takes 10 minutes to make those cards, it will bless them with learning how to pray by actually doing it. That's so good. That's great. Uh, one of the things you say about entering the teenage years is that their peer relationships increase in importance but are full of instability. What critical role do you see the church and parents playing in this formative stage that's full of so much change? >> Yeah, teen friendships, you know, they come and go just like boyfriends and girlfriends come and go in these years. And that's hard for kids. I mean, I've walked through it with multiple of my kids. There were certain kids I thought would be their friends forever and then you know situations change, circumstances change and and your kids can be left high and dry. And so I think the beautiful thing is that the family stays, your siblings stay, uh they're they're going to be around and you're teaching them that. And and also the church hopefully stays and that is a real anchor point that I think we have neglected in society and there are a lot of reasons for that. Uh travel sports and some things and just a transient society. But what a blessing and I I realize not everyone can grow up in this way. What a blessing for kids who were two-year-olds in the nursery and now get to be 13 year olds serving back in that same nursery. Um that's that's community that we are losing as a culture in our secular age. We just don't have that and it's something the church can really come around our kids and be a blessing. >> Related to that, Melissa, actually I'm really glad you you brought up that point about the stability of church maybe in an instable time. Chelsea and I have talked a lot about, you know, as a pastor of a local church, and I know Cassie works at a different church, but has the same questions. Kids will sometimes be the determining factor in what church a family goes to. We'll meet families that say, "Oh, we're at your church because our kid liked your student ministry or we'll have families leave that go, "Oh, my kid wanted to go to another student ministry." Where their friends go. Chelsea and I are always trying to reinforce with our boys, you know, your your your brothers are your friends for life. There's going to be a lot of people that come and go from your life and uh I hope like you just displayed that there would be a church that would be a really bastion of stability in their life. I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit. I know you mentioned this in the book as well. How do you advise a family who's making a church decision based on where their kid wants to go? Like what's what's great about that that you see, but maybe also is there a reason to be cautious about letting a teenager's preference decide where a family is worshiping, you know? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And there there's a rightness to wanting to listen to your teen. Like I what I what I applaud about that is there's like, yeah, let's have a conversation about it. Why don't you like this church? What you know, ha ask them some questions. I actually think it's always interesting to hear why what don't you like about this? um because that's going to help you even understand where they are and what's going on. And I think um being creative is a really good idea as a parent and saying maybe they do like that youth group better. Okay, go to that youth group, but maybe you still come to church here. Like there's still a lot of variety of things you can do because the the other reality is teenagers are at a unique developmental stage where their peer groups really matter. And so there is something to saying, I get why you want to be around your friends at this stage. That's important. And I think you can be creative about how you can maybe do a both and. Um, but I also think it's okay to say, hey, if you really want to go to that church, our family's going to go here in the teen years once they can drive and things. I I have I have let my kids go other places than we have um at different points. And then often they've come back and they like being with the family, you know, but they're again they're getting ready to go off to college where they're going to need to figure out what church they want to go to. One thing our youth group did that I loved, they actually did a church tour. Um they took about a month and they traveled with the youth leader and visited other churches to prepare kids for going to college. Um because part of you know seeing other churches, seeing what else is out there is and I think it's a great thing families can do on vacation. If when you're on vacation, you go to different churches. My kids were like fascinated. We were Easter one year. We were at a Baptist church and you know they were raised in a Presbyterian church and they were like, "Wow, they're getting in the water. Oh my goodness, what's happening?" And you know, I mean, they were just fascinated and it led to a great discussion and sure enough, both of my kids have gone off to college and been baptized. They're at Baptist churches. So, you know, it's it's great for them to get to see um what's what's happening. >> Yeah. We we had a wild experience on the way to Disney World uh with the church that it was my Adam was driving. It's my job to look these up. And I I read the belief statement, y'all. And they believed that that Jesus died for our sins and rose again, and the word of God was true. And so all that checked out and but I could tell that this worship team was going to be bomb. Okay, so I was pumped. So we went in and I was right. It was the music was awesome. And then they preached something that we definitely do not believe. And we sat there respectfully and the second we got in the car, our oldest kid goes, um, do do we believe all of that? And I was like, um, listen to dad. Dad's going to explain all of that. >> Um, but we had a good time. But yeah, we want our kids to be discerning. I was really proud of our oldest son for like listening and going I have not heard that. That was that was a different >> Is that a new part of the Bible? >> Yeah, that was a different concept and you're like it. Yes, it is. >> Okay. And in um section two of the book, uh Melissa, you talk about battles and not so much battles with sex and drugs and secular music and technology, but with idolatry. How is that a core battle to be in alongside your teenager? And can you explain also the difference between a source idol, a surface idol, and a cultural idol? >> Yeah. Yeah. The second section is a lot about idolatry. Um, and I think as parents, we get into parenting and thinking, I've got to battle this teenager or this culture. >> Um, and I think the battle is so often my own heart. You know, I am and and however those, you know, when we talk about different types of idols, we have source idols. power, control, comfort, approval. So those are different s source idols any of us might have. Now they can rise to the surface and sometimes they look very sim similar. So money is a typical surface idol. But I I could want money because I want power or I could want money because I want comfort or I could want money because I want control. You know, there are a lot of different reasons surface idols can come, but most of us have some core idolatry we're facing. And I would even say we get into different types of parenting. Permissive parents are often going to, you know, really want approval and comfort from their kids, whereas more authoritarian parents are going to want power and control. So our idols even affect our parenting styles that we're most attracted to. Um, and the reality is we have to do battle with those. And and then I also talk about, you know, um, cultural idols that are I call that kind of like groundwater contamination. Um, that's how it's rising to the surface in our particular western moment. And I think the the idolatry of sports and activities, of social acceptance, and of scholarship are just huge in a lot of our parenting context. And so what happens is those aren't bad things, but they um often rise to the surface and become the thing we are focusing on more than the best thing, which is our child's spiritual development. And so I see so many circumstances where yeah, I can't get to church. My kid can't um we can't ever, you know, sit down as a family and pray together because, you know, we're just too busy. >> And so a lot of times the most important things we can be passing down to our kids are missed because of good things, but they're not the best thing. >> That's Amen. I I love particularly what you said about we have this temptation in the teenage years to think our battle is with the teenager. And I think what you're painting a picture for is how we battle for and alongside the teenager against things that we struggle with and they struggle with. Now, I have a a very real question for you because this is something I I really struggle through and it's related to what you're talking about. We we've talked about this in in some ways many times on this podcast, but there's a time at which you want your kids to learn lessons for themsel. You take them to the church to go visit to see if they want to be there. You point out the idol and then you ask them to kind of see it. And you don't always stop them from maybe pursuing. let them fail, I guess, is the word you would say. Like, uh, you let the kid fail sometimes so they might learn the natural consequences. But certainly there's sometimes where you don't let the kid fail, where you stop them and you say, "No, I see that that's going to be a bad decision. I'm not going to let you do that." Can you help us help a parent discern when they're a parent of a teenager? How did you decide when it was time to let them fail and when it was time to step in? Yeah, I I would say um let them fail in things like and parents are going to hate me for this. Let them fail in school, you know, already they're like, I'm never going to buy that book. Um meaning here's what I mean by this. If they don't I'm amazed. I was a teacher. I I did not have online grades. I mean, I was I still had floppy disc when I was teaching, okay? So, it was like that's how we were turning in grades. Um, this whole notion of checking your kids homework all the time, it's got to stop. Like, you don't need to know that they miss their science homework. Just let let it fail. Let it go because they'll figure it out. And let me just say, boys in particular, I was a teacher. I'm not saying this to they, I mean, would lose their heads if they was not attached. And they they do really grow up and they get out of it and the frontal lobe connects and they will remember their homework one day. you chasing them around, making them do it isn't actually helping them. So, I would say like there there are places, let them forget their shuards, let them forget their cleats. >> Okay. But then there's a right place to have boundaries. Don't let them go to parties where you don't know that there are adults present and there could be drinking and driving. Yeah. Like I mean, we have to have right guidelines for them and things like that. So, yeah. I mean, those are the things. It's okay to make a C rather than a B in a class. What you don't want them doing is making mistakes that are going to potentially harm someone or harm themsel. So those are the areas I think where we really have to be careful to set up good boundaries. >> Yeah, those are some helpful boundaries. I I do think, you know, I would also tell parents if if you have somebody like Melissa's in your life who's been there, ask them before you're making these decisions about >> whether or not this is a good place to draw a boundary or whether or not I should let my kid fail, whether or not I should let my kid go to this other church or stay here. These are not all things you have to do in a bubble. You can definitely lean on your pastor, lean on your home group, small group, lean on some parents that have older kids that have been there before, or even maybe some older siblings. You could ask like how did this go for you? You know, a lot of times our oldest kid is our most responsible kid and then you get this next kid who is forgetting their shin guards every day and and you're like how you know you don't want to compare your kids but you do want to involve your kids and how can we make this better. Uh Melissa, one of my favorite things you say in the book is some of the best wisdom I think and and that's saying a lot because the whole book is really great. We love the book. >> One of the things you say is after you ask thoughtful questions, listen to your teen. >> Yeah. >> This is the way you describe. You say, "Listen like you would to a good friend. Be a student of your teen. The better you understand them, the more you can help guide them." Uh, could you just unpack for us just a little bit why is listening so important when you're the parent of a teenager? >> The first thing I just want to say is that control kills our curiosity. And so a lot of times as parents, I'm not interested in listening because I'm just interesting in controlling their behavior. >> That's good. >> Rather than saying, "Hey, why why do you think this?" I would not do that with a friend, right? And here's what that gets at. It gets at you represent me and that's why I need to control you. Like my friend doesn't represent me so I can listen to them well. >> And so I've got to let go of them. They're they're their separate human and this is the hardest thing to do as a parent. But to actually look at them as just another person who is trying to walk through this world who I really want to introduce to Jesus and so hey I'm just curious why do you think that? What's going on with you? What you know and just having that kind of attitude towards our kids where we're really listening. I'm telling you it will allow conversations to continue even when you disagree if we can just be more curious. That's excellent. >> Yeah, that is a big deal. Um, very hard to separate your kid from your image, you know, but we got to do it and we got to do it. Thank you for encouraging in that us in that way. Uh, one of the other parenting principles you talk about in the book that I think is true and helpful in every stage of parenting is my response is my responsibility. Um, will you share with us what you mean when you say that and why is it important for Christian parents to understand? >> I say this to myself all the time. Especially when I'm getting ready to like lose, you know, the the steam cooker is getting ready to explode or whatever. I'm like, "My response is my responsibility." And and I think, isn't that what we want our kids to believe, you know? I mean, I think I say it to myself because I said it to my three-year-old. Um, yeah, I know your brother was really annoying. That does not mean you get to hit him. Your responsibil, your response is your responsibility. And maybe I said it enough to them that it finally got into me. And I think this is so important. Um, and it's made me a much better apologizer to my kids. Um, so when I don't respond well, I mean, I didn't respond well to my 23-year-old daughter. She's planning a wedding. And I called her back and I apologized and I said, "I'm sorry I made a big deal about that. It wasn't a big deal, and I'm really sorry." And she immediately was like, "Oh, yeah. I forgive you, Mom, but I I I'm still practicing this. You know, my tongue still can say things I wish I could suck back." Um, and so, but what I will say is learning to give a good apology has again modeled it. And all of my kids give good apologies. Um, they've had they've had two strong examples of a lot of apologies needed. And um, but but I would say, isn't that what the gospel is? We're teaching them how to live in a fallen world. And we're teaching them how to be individuals who are supposed to pray every day, forgive us our sins. So therefore, it might need to happen sometimes in the home. >> Yeah. And related to that, the section that really hit me is when you talk about the difference between correction and criticism. I may be known to be a little critical and just a little bit. And I would love for you to just tease out how the difference between those things impacts our response to something our child's our children do. >> Yeah. I I think when I am critical, I I can often act as though you are bad. Okay. And now let me step back from this. There's a side that we're all bad. Meaning, you know, if we're talking about in theological terms, we all deeply in need of redemption. Um, but it's very different to say a behavior was bad than you are bad as like unredeemable as a person. Um, and and those are two really different things. So to correct a behavior is very different to than to kind of make statements like you never do anything right. Well, that's a pretty hopeless place to be. >> Yeah. >> Because that that sounds like, well, you could never do anything, right? Whereas that actually correction says, hey, this wasn't the best choice. What would a better choice be next time? >> Well, that's hopeful. That actually says as a parent, I think you can make a better choice. >> And yeah, correction's hopeful. Whereas criticism just leads to kind of dismay. You're just a bad kid, so you're going to keep doing bad things. >> Yeah, that's so good. And our kids need to hear that, especially as teenagers start to make their own mistakes and failures, you know, to hear that there's going to be another chance. And and we're here for when you when you make your mistakes. Um, we've loved having you. Thank you so much for being here. Uh, we always at the end of our interviews ask our guests if there are ways that our listeners could be praying for them. So, would you share a few ways our listeners can pray? >> Oh, that's so kind. Well, I am in the middle of planning a wedding. So with my 23year-old. So uh prayers pray prayers that I would not be critical >> that I would be u no it's actually been a sweet time but I would I would love prayer for that. That's so kind of you guys. This is so fun. But just prayers that I'm so thankful I am getting to get a new child in my home who I did not have to birth or raise and he is delightful. I'm telling you marriage is a great way to add to your family. And so, um, I'm really thankful, but just that it would be a wonderful celebration and that I would hold my tongue when I need to. >> That's good. Well, thanks for listening, friends. If you think it's as important as we do to disciple our families, please help us out by giving us a great review wherever you listen to podcasts. Visit one of our sponsors and share this episode with one of your friends. If you want to keep up with us or join the conversation, you can follow the Family Disciplehip Podcast on Instagram and Facebook. We love you listeners and we're looking forward to next week with you. We will have another new episode next Monday. [Music]