Podcast: Melissa Kruger - Parenting with Hope | Word First

[Music] I'm chat Bettis and you're listening to the discipl making parent where we seek to equip parents and churches to pass the gospel to their children are you a parent of teenagers how's it going feeling overwhelmed struggling to stay afloat Melissa Krueger is going to help you par it with hope hi my name is Chap Bettis and I'm the author of The Disciple making parent you know the teen years can be some very interesting times there can be lots of fun and there can be lots of challenges I remember thinking at times that I'm just carving my way through a jungle I don't even know exactly where I'm going at other times I felt like the whole family we were we were floating down a river with Rapids but maybe we were in the war I came across Melissa Krueger's book parenting with hope raising teens for Christ in a secular age and I loved it not only because we were so like-minded but because she states some of the same principles that I believe in with different words in her book she talks about the foundations of a Godly home some Idols that will tempt our teen and us and finally some positive attributes to aim for in your home Melissa is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition and she's the author of multiple books including growing together Walking with God in the season of motherhood in the popular children's book wherever I go I want to know you her husband Mike is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary their parents of three adult children and live in Charlotte North Carolina well before we start though I want to remind you of two resources that may be of interest to you first our newest book is entitled launch biblical help for moving your teen or young adult into the real world it's a short read and it's the information I wish I had as I was Raising teenagers and and with the idea of launching them out into the world you can find it on our website or on Amazon and the title is launch biblical help for moving your teen or young adult into the real world and of course the second resource we always highlight is that we give away the Audi book of the discipl making parent absolutely free just visit our website the discipl making parent.com sign up for our Weekly Newsletter and we'll give you the whole Audi book for free we're in a mission to equip parents and grandparents to raise their children to not only love the Lord and not only be disciples but to be disciple makers taking the gospel to the world and standing as Salt and Light in our country so head on over to the disciplemaker [Music] docomo but for now let's listen to my interview with Melissa Krueger on parenting with hope well it's a joy to have Melissa Krueger on the discipl making parent podcast Melissa is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition and she's the author of multiple book books including growing together uh Walking with God in the season of motherhood and the popular children's books wherever I go I want to know you her husband Mike is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary and they're the parents of three adult children and live in Charlotte North Carolina so Melissa thank you for taking time to be on the podcast thanks for having me well I've been looking forward to this interview for quite a while uh we're going to discuss your book parenting with hope raising teens for Christ in a secular age which is also my heart but you're a prolific author my wife right now is going through uh growing together with two young women uh in our church and my son-in-law he's a campus Minister he told me this morning he said I just handed out one of your husband's books so thank you for your writing and teaching Ministry that's kind of that's really been helpful for the kingdom that's encouraging to hear well one of the reasons I'm looking forward to this interview so much is because as I read parenting with hope I found myself agreeing with it over and over and we're like-minded in many ways but what I what I like is you use different words and in some in in many cases sort of come at it a little differently and so uh I think it's helpful to hear the same ideas the same things just different words reach different people sometimes strike us uh differently and so we really are in a battle for our teens's hearts in this age so let me just start with the reason you wrote the book and the need that you saw yeah um that's always a good question right because you never feel equipped to write books especially books on parenting so I will have to say I resisted this one um I had had a publisher reach out and they had read Walking with God in the season of motherhood and they were like we really need this for the teen years and I was just like I do not want to do that I don't want to step into the space and um I took about a year to think about it and over the course of that year I I really you just just felt like actually this is probably something I should do I I actually have always loved the teen years I was a high school math teacher in my other life and I um even when I worked in at camps in the summers at College I always worked with teenagers that was what I always loved working with and you know you wonder maybe I like other people's teenagers I'm not sure I'll like my own but I actually really love this season of of of this age of child and um the other thing I recognized and this was a little bit true of Walking with God in the season of motherhood right now I actually it would be hard for me to write a book for young moms because I've forgotten so much if you ask me oh how do you get them to sleep through the night oh I don't really remember so I felt like it was actually good to write some of this down why I still remembered it we talked earlier I mean my kids are 24 21 and 18 so I'm just exiting this season of having you know pre-teens and teens in my home and so it's still fresh on my brain some of some of these things but but what I also found I was really helped by the things I had learned in um my education classes in college about team development those things actually really helped me live in an understanding way with my teenager and so I wanted to try to put those things alongside biblical wisdom um in this book for parents teens and also maybe a little bit of hope that this can be a really wonderful season with your family yeah it's it's it sometimes it feels crazy I I had a friend describe it as uh with young kids it feels like the uh you're in a uh a raft on the Rapids and then in the teen years it feels like the raft has turned over and you're you're you're floating and trying to stay together and and but also having it makes a great story having fun at the at the same time so yeah well talk you start with um I love I it shows that youve sat through a lot of sermons because there's a lot of alliteration here so you got the the basics yeah the foundation of a Christian Home the battle and then the blessings cultivating a home where teens Thrive I appreciate that let's just talk about the the basics here um you talk about the basics of word prayer and church uh talk a little bit about that how did you integrate the word into in your family and I want to think here maybe you did describe a very specific situation with the teen years and I liked about like that but also thinking about the younger years how did you integrate the word yeah well in those three things I consider foundational to the Christian home and I think often they're overlooked we want the shiny answers um and I think the Lord has given us means of Grace by which we know him and we walk with him and that's true for our children as well and so those things can seem so basic being in the word being in prayer and being in church and people are like yeah yeah yeah yeah but give me the real answer and I'm like well that actually is the real answer um and and not only for our teens but for us as parents I think too often we um maybe overly concern ourselves with getting our kids in the word and we're actually not reading it ourselves so Deuteronomy 6 you know it says love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and strength these Commandments that I give you are to be on your heart teach them to your children so we I think we sometimes neglect the first work about loving we need to be fueling our own affection for the Lord every day and we need to be spending time in his word time in prayer for our kids and time in church not just for our kids but for ourselves and so I call those kind of the foundational things but then when it comes and then what I think will happen is we will more naturally pass that along to our kids as we go about our way so I think there's two things that happens we're in the word we're being imprinted um the word being imprinted on our hearts and then we're going to naturally imprint it but definitely in the young years we spent a lot of time with uh you having spaces in our home where we were getting the word to them whether it was memorizing ver um together as a family and that can be really fun I mean there are a lot of great songs out there there are a lot of great ways to memorize um but then we also had family devotions every night um or we that changed in that once our kids went to elementary school we started doing devotions in the morning and a lot of that when the young years was catechism I'm really big on the catechism um there there are a couple versions out there there's a new city catechism um that TGC has um has put out but there's also one that we use in our tradition um and it's just a question answer format that's all catechism me it sounds so formal but what I love about that is it actually allows the children to speak I think so often in our instruction we're doing all the talking and C you who made you God what else did God make all things why did God make you in all things for his glory and the kids are participating and you know we did that every night at dinner and it was just a normal part of our family time time together um and so I I I do think we have to be intentional but it doesn't actually take that much time and so I think sometimes people think oh I don't have time to do all that well if you have time to eat dinner then you have time to do this you know it's really it wasn't that laborious at all for our family to do it's just making it a point and making it really an important part of your family that the word is regularly read in your home not just on Sunday morning yeah and you mentioned Deuteronomy 6 being on our hearts first and then but then also it the rest of it talks about different times throughout our day when it's just it's just sort of there so it's not oppressive but it is but it is there uh and just mentioned you did you highlighted the research and just talking about the word how important um that is as opposed to as a pastor I want to teach I want to I want to lecture I want to pontificate yeah yeah and I think in the young young years you got to remember I mean we're dealing with concrete learners for them you're setting if you if you're dealing with young children you're really just saying the foundation get the word in them so the more they can memorize their little brains are like sponges and they're actually able to memorize so the more that's in that's hidden in their heart I mean that can come back when they're 23 you're building a foundation for them I would say when when you get into the middle school and teen years that's when you get to have really interesting discussions what does this mean what does this say why why do you think this is in there um how does this actually impact you as you're worried about that test tomorrow um so there there are times you know I think we're going to have more conversations on this the older they get but I think in the young years it's really important to get those foundational principles in their heart yeah that's helpful I mean I've said it this way every parent needs to be a teacher and a counselor teacher in the teacher in the young years lecturer putting that information in but then coun that but it is hard to shift gears to become the counselor yeah uh later on so yeah in that chapter surprisingly and I want you to emphasize this in the chapter you talked about parenting Styles and I have that my my material I think it's so important in this day and age so I wonder if you would wouldn't mind just describing those and then maybe speak to the younger mother who's influenced by the permissive style if you yeah yeah so there are four TP you if there's a quadrant there are four typicals I'm going to give them a little bit different names because I think it's easier to differentiate um authoritarian is what is often used I use domineering because I think it it differentiates it better and we understand more what that is so a domineering parent um the second category is called authoritative but I think authoritative and authoritarian are so close that they get mixed up a lot I call that a shepherding parent um and then we have permissive and we have negligent so most people listening this podcast are not in the negligent quadrant they're there they care um permissive I think they're I here's what I would say both permissive and domineering tend to be based in fear um they parent out of fear the domineering parent fears losing control um the permissive parent fears losing their children's affection in some sense you know or maybe they won't like me or um maybe I'll damage them in some way if I have any rules so I think whereas that shepherding parent says no I I'm I'm called to lead this child um I I'm called to give structure and boundaries to this child but I'm going to do so in such a way that's always looking out for the good of the child I I would say domineering parenting is often looking out for the good of the parent you do it because I say it you know it's kind of that and you do it because I want you to do this rather than I I would say Shepherd parent is looking what does God ask of my child so God doesn't really ask my child to play football or soccer um a domineering parent going to say you play football because I'm telling you to play football or whatever it might be they're going to they're going to dominate and the child's going to do what the parent wants because it's representing the parent the child is the representative versus a shepher in parent sees this child as actually their goal is to glorify God not to glorify the parent so that's a different question and when we get to permissive um which I think there's a lot of this right now I think we always swing um between yeah I think the two swings are typically between permissive and a you know a domineering type model of parenting and um I just would say this I mean I saw this in my years of teaching one of my students came up to me and they said you know I know that teacher doesn't actually care about us and I said well tell me why you think that and he said well you know she lets us she never really actually teaches us anything she lets us do whatever we want in her classroom and I know she doesn't care about us cuz if she actually cared about us she'd teach us something and and the reality is permissive isn't actually a way of loving your child um they they they you've lived more of life you actually understand truths that your child doesn't know and they need you to be that Shepherd parent they need your guidance they need your boundaries um they need you to do that in a loving and warm way but allowing them free reign is actually not loving them very well they need um to be directed into what is good for their souls so what we're doing when we direct them to the truths of scripture is actually saying hey this is the path of life live in it this is how it goes well for you this is the Bible God God gave us this path to show us how to live not to keep us from life but to actually show us how to live in a way um that is going to go well for us in some ways and and that doesn't mean we get everything we want when I say that it's just how we were created to live um it's not good when we steal it's not good when we gossip it's not good when we lie like those things aren't going to go well for you in the end and as a parent we've lived lifelong enough to be able to pass that on down to our children um so I would just always say permissive is really fear-based parenting oh that's very interesting that's very helpful um yeah wanting our kids to wanting our kids to like us being afraid of being re Ed and yeah we we have lived more of Life uh so children are held up in scripture as examples of Faith but also examples of of uh ignorance and so that's yeah absolutely very helpful let me while we're still in that section just talk a little bit about prayer um thinking about uh you know you mentioned that before prayer is for us as well um what are you talked about praying for yourself spontaneous schedule times I wonder if you just expand on that for just in our conversation now yeah I mean this was one of the hugest ways we did actually family devotions in the morning was I mean always included prayer time we had five different prayer cards one for Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday and um everybody had one day where we prayed for them we had five in our family so that worked out well you can figure it out based on your numbers and then but we also we really had some other categories we again scriptures tells to pray for your leaders so every day of the week we also prayed for either a pastor or for a principal or for the president you know um the scriptures tell us pray for open doors for our missionaries so we also every day prayed for a missionary on our list and then we also had a time where we prayed for um those who might be sick or suffering in a certain way so it allowed our kids yes we're going to pray for our family but we're also going to pray for this world and in a world where we know kids are more anxious than ever they're more lo than ever there's something about prayer it not only connects us to God it connects us to one another and it teaches them yeah the world is out of control you're seeing this horrible thing happen in Afghanistan and we're actually going to pray about it together as a family it it teaches them what do you do with your anxiety um it there it is a fearful world it's actually not wrong you know when Joshua and the spies saw the promised land they really were like you know they were like grasshoppers compared to these Giants but what did they do they trusted in the Lord and so I think prayer is a real way we teach our children this is how you trust in the Lord you bring to him your concerns um and it it really helps them understand how to deal with a world that is very scary and very out of control um we can't control it but we can ask the Lord to help um in what in our own personal lives and in the lives of those around us yeah thanks that's a very practical call applications of Philippians 4 just not to be anxious but to to bring everything so I love how you're doing that you're just so you're just saying this is we did this one thing so this is not overwhelming uh you know I can do this and it just becomes a habit and it's just day after day after day I don't I don't want to skip the chapter on the church because I both both of us are church people we need the church it's she's the bride of Christ um but I want to I do want to skip ahead to talk about you significant time in the next section where you talk about uh the battle which is fighting for the better uh which just that title is really interesting because always it's not the the battle's always not between the good and the bad it's the better and the best and you specifically bring up Tim Keller and His Four Source Idols of power approval comfort and control and the fears that go along with it I wonder if just we we you would elaborate um on that just people who've not read Tim Keller it might be helpful to describe what's going on in their hearts and in their emotions yeah and I I always like to begin with but when we talk about idols and when Tim was talking about idolatry it was not little you know physical things that we're bowing down to but um really whatever we're trusting in in this world um so all of us have different places we really put our trust um and we really lean on and rely on and think hey if I and this is going to solve the issues in my life and so it's kind of that um the the reason that this chapter these chapters really came to be there's a verse in Second Kings and I would say it was a very sobering verse it says while these people were worshiping the Lord they were serving their idols and their children and their grandchildren did the same after them and it it really it really hit me that um we can talk all long about the dangers of culture out there out there because it's really nice to talk about something that's out there that's not about me but what was really impacting the children of the Israelites was that their parents were saying that they were worshiping the Lord but they were actually serving their idols and that's passed on generationally and so perhaps my child's um biggest problem is not the way culture is informing their life but the way my own idolatry is dressing in on their life and if my Idols whatever they might be um you know whether it's Comfort or approval or power or control that is something I am called as a parent to fight um and I I want to fight that and it's going to spring up to the surface in all different ways whether it's a Love of Money whether it you know it's a love of work so we work incessant to get power or whatever it might be it's going to spring up in our in our lives all in different ways but if you take money which is pretty ubiquitous like everyone probably can trust in money so in some way um and I I see that I think that's really impacting our teens right now when it comes to scholarship and achievement so there's this whole notion I need to raise a well-rounded child so that they get into a good college why do I care that they get in a good college so that they can get a good job and kind of live the American dream and under under that is my child will be safest if they have a good paycheck and so when I look at what's happening what's really keeping kids from church what's really keeping them from the better portion it's not sex drugs and rock and roll so to speak it's oh I have soccer practice oh you we have a tournament this weekend oh we have violin that day I can't get to church what's keeping our kids out of church is in a like just this over pressure to be well-rounded and to get to all these activities so that you can get to a good college and so it's it's kind of a hidden danger out there I think and we've got to really assess why are we so busy and why can my kid not get to church it's choices we're making I mean these are or why can we not have a family dinner it's choices we're making as a society right now and and it's just putting a ton of pressure on our kids but I think at the heart part of it is idolatry um and and again we want good things for our kids we've just defined what the good thing is in a wrong way that's very helpful because what you've done is really just taken taken this from the behavior level down to the Heart level so we've got our hearts I had one guy um say to me just off-handed remark he said I I think most kids who are being pushed in sports most it's because of their parents father s often uh failed High School career or something so in other words it's not because the child's being pushed toward it it's because I get approval I'm living my life through them so you're do that's really helpful and then also I think it's uh you know as our our teens become more mature they're starting to be aware of these things as well um just why am I doing this I'm doing this so that I can uh people will like me approve be approved or I'm in control so yeah that's just really helpful um so let's talk about you dive in you you really sort of elaborated that on three chapters and and one of them is this idea of of um success we just mentioned that but the idea you you got the equation there which is intelligence or education leads to money and money leads to happiness you I appreciate you're very balanced there so there's the blessings of wealth wisdom and work and there's the dangers how did you call your children so this is very practical how did you call their your children when they were teens to Excellence without making this an idol I remember finding that very very difficult trying to figure out what are they capable of what is laziness what is man what is me my children will you know fill in the blank yeah any thoughts on from that yeah and and I I need to say clearly on this I had three kids who were really hard workers they just were and so I'm like was that I don't know why you know was that because of the young years and and I can also say this Mike and I were not pressure full parents um you know now they had different degrees of um how far that would take them I have one kid who just loves he loves every single subject I can't even tell you I mean he he loves building Rockets he's in aerospace engineering right now he also so loves you know he comes home and he's like Mom have you read The Raven by it's amazing you so so some of this is you know kids have natural things and some kids just like School more than others like I I have one kid who school is actually really hard she battles with dyslexia so it's hard but she was always hardworking so that was that heart issue you're asking about and they really all displayed um even when grades weren't easy for some they were all hardworking now I can say as a as an educator I always was very against overemphasizing grades so I don't know if they got that message young and so it was never a pressure point in our home I I think grades I would tell my kids over and ever grades are simply a reflection of what you knew at one moment in time I think in our society today we have let grades Define people um one thing I actually found I didn't put it in the book but I found my grandfather's report card um and this is from Memphis schools in the 40s and what's fascinating about it is how little this one little corner was the grades and so much of it was character and so I think in the young years one thing that's really important to stress is character hey you worked really hard at this I'm so glad you got that be you did you did such a great job working really hard um like hey it's okay that you you know you didn't do so well in that we're going to study a little more but if yeah Math's not your subject that's okay you us being really okay that every kid doesn't have to be gifted in every way and helping them find those successes I think is really important but there is a difference it's really I I would say what's difficult is when you see laziness or you see a kid who's not getting their homework and and what I do always say to moms of boys is please be patient I was a high school teacher so I had a view I had a view of a bunch of different kids and what I'll say is when I was teaching I was like how did any men ever become CEOs or presidents because they cannot at 14 they are not winning they are not winning they cannot get their homework done they cannot but they'll they'll know how to do the math problem but they just couldn't get their homework done and so this is where I say teen development they really are developing and if you had a a child who's a year old and they weren't yet walking you know what you wouldn't say is I'm going to work really hard with them every day and we're going to get them walking by 13 months you would just say Okay developmentally some kids walking 9 months some kids walk at 15 months the ability to um use your executive function is a development of the brain some kids really aren't there at 14 they just aren't we have to accept it it's it's not always a discipline issue sometimes it's a development issue and so we can have expectations we can keep saying you need to turn in your homework but some kids are going to need more help with that than others and I think accepting that and realizing they are still developing they look like adults and sometimes they will get it right but it is genuinely harder for them to get it right at 14 than it will be at 19 and and so being patient with them with some of those things that could mask as laziness but actually might be it's actually going to be harder for a 14-year old boy than a 14 year old girl to remember to turn his homework it just biologically there are differences with them they really will wake up one day and they will they will get it done I'm so I just say that to be patient with some of those things and just to keep what I always say what I get nervous about with when it comes to academics in in the teen years is don't lose the relationship over a grade um you know sometimes our our kids start to think the only thing we care about is that they do well school and just keeping the main thing the main thing like no I actually want to talk to you about spiritual conversations I want to talk to you about how how you're doing with the Lord that's going to impact your work ethic you know but keep the main thing the main thing and let grades be grades but they really will come along on that that's I'm sitting here reacting as a dad thinking that's that's good for the mom to say the dad is like quk Quirk of course I remember hearing some guys say once I think he was addressing college kids he's like well you know those of you those of you who got c those of you who got A's are going to be working for those of us who got C's so it is there is not a direct correlation between academics so but uh yeah I had a I'll say I had h a few of those who might have struggled with uh laziness and one who struggled uh because of a brain tumor with executive function yeah and um and it it in in cases I I had to adjust my expectations yeah I think as a dad my wife was much more sympathetic and in tune so yeah that's really that's really um good but I think what you're what what's underneath that is um just just saying no there's not a direct connection between a and success in life um and I think that's that's really that's how we need to hear that actually and if you read some some interesting books like out liers I think by Malcolm Gladwell I mean he'll talk about how often CEOs have dyslexia and they've learn this where I always just want to say God made your child God's got you know God's got them and so I think we want all of our kids to fit in a box sometimes but sometimes the very thing or maybe it it's David and Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell because he talks about the story of David and Goliath David had one skill he had one skill Goliath W on every other thing but David's one skill of using a slingshot allowed him to beat goath and and and I found it really hopeful I read it when my kids were young and we were just getting a diagnosis about my daughter and it really helped me to be like oh this is how her brain works yes it's harder for her it's harder for her to learn to read you know and I and I had to do the research and understand some of those things um but it just means they see the world a little bit differently and the Lord's going to use that in his Providence and that's okay and so some of the bumps in the road our kids have I think what we can really entrust those to the Lord and say he's got a plan for this part of their story in his Providence we're going to parent very differently whereas when we think we've got to manage their issues to get them somewhere God you know we're it's just very different when we entrust these things to the Lord that's helpful my wife did a great job of of we we homeschooled our kids and just figuring out how are they made and so they're not all made and that was I think something I had to learn as a dad to say oh I got an audio learner once I go to a movie I can't remember any of the dialogue but he can recall it perfectly and start laughing about the uh the lines and so yeah our kids are different it's figuring out how where's the sin in that and then where's the unique way they they made them that's right that's cool well let's go let's transition talk about the you talk about busyness in sports and activities and on the one hand those are positive experience expences but we can overcommit and I I think as parents we look around and it there part of that fear kicks in because my friends are doing dance and they're doing a musical instrument and they're doing this and they're doing that um you ask will this activity interfere with church family dinners and sleep and then there was a section and I'm like H now I know we're likeminded it's called the benefits of boredom so uh just talk a little bit about how your family thought about activities uh I mean I don't know we we need to talk about all the the positives CU I think we know them but how did you cut back or or have self-control and then what did what did what was clearly in your mind that boredom is okay yeah um my husband and I were just talking about this the other night because our kids have so many hobbies that they actually love I was talking to a group of parents and one of the parents came up to me and she was like how did you know what your kids loved and in my head I was like what's what they did when they were bored that's how you know what they love like what do they do and I realized so few parents have any boredom with their kids that they don't know what their kids actually love doing and so one thing we had so if you have young kids this was my big transition from nap time to I mama I still needed some down time during the day so nap time went to room time so all of my kids every single day of their childhood while they were home with me had room time and when they got into school age this transition to every Sunday after church we all had room time and they just still laugh and they will say now uh they one here's the news flash no one else knows what's happening in anybody's home in the young years except you so my kids didn't know that was weird they thought every family had had room time so that's all they knew as they normal and even after church that's all they knew is their normal and they will all tell me every single one of them we learned how to be alone and and do things that were interesting so for my daughter one daughter she's a nurse now but she loved doing artwork during that time and she really got good I mean she could paint things she would do things like that during that time my son built everything during that time like he would make all of these big projects in his room and then my daughter my other daughter um actually taught herself guitar and keyboard and now writes her own music they they would not have had space for that if we filled every moment um and that even means with people sometimes we're just so social in in in America that we just don't have space to be together as a family um and and I really think providing space and making sure you have space in your life and honestly if we would just take the Sabbath seriously um and say hey Sunday's our day of rest we're going to actually take some time to take a break from the normal running around all day not just church but just take a break um I think it would benefit everybody but our kids are worn out they're exhausted and they don't have space for creativity because we fill them to the brm and so I think one one easy way to put this on well is just to think about how you're using Sundays could you just cut all activities on Sundays and just say we're going to we're going to take this as a family day of rest we're going to take every Sunday maybe you don't have a devotion any other day of the week but every Sunday evening let's have a family meal together and let's pray together and let's have devotion it's amazing what that one day of the week would maybe do and allow your family time to say yes to if we said no to other things um and so I think but I do think it takes commitment I think it's really hard because you've got a lot of coaches promising College scholarships and all of these things but I really I you know I think yeah I think we just have to battle against that and the reality is this the amount of money people spend on Sports would be a scholarship by the time they got to college I'm telling you we were just like so like I say the exact same thing yeah like that's yeah that's crazy that's crazy it would be and um I was a kid who actually could have played Sports maybe it was my own personal experience I had offers to play soccer in college by the end of my high school and I had played in select leagues at the time and all you at the time it was a much dial down thing so you know it and by the time I was a senior I was done I I was I didn't want to play in college I played enough I was tired I didn't want to go to college and have to do Sports all the time and so I think my own experience in that was like you don't even know how that seven-year-old is going to feel at 18 so why are you going to spend your life with a seven-year-old on a soccer field every weekend because by the time they're 12 they might be done with soccer so it's just we we've got to we've got to be the Shepherds we've got to lead the way and not let our kids lead the way on those things oh man there's just so much good in what you said just even on that last thing just uh just thinking about the life lessons that they're learning and that cuz this then then you can push them that oh this overlap with the being successful and the money and all that as opposed to why are we actually doing this well you know I I think you know the guy who's going pro in high school but everybody else is not going pro and so you're out there for character lessons all these all the lessons you can't learn in the classroom yeah um and uh our kids did speech and debate and uh you know they learned a lot of good skills but there were some parents who were like you know this is this is taking them to the promised land and you know my daughters my kids did well we had row of trophies and those trophies are all in the basement now but you know they learned some skills along the way yeah we we developed some family um you know we develop family relationships they develop friends good memories but also back to I think having the confidence to do back to boredom in the confidence so my wife did we did room time too so I know exactly what you're talking about and just having that confidence to say I heard two things I heard I heard structured um boredom and I heard uh tools so in other words in their room they have a guitar or they have something else and so it's yeah you you've got plenty of stuff you can do and to um to to to bring that about so I yeah I think that's I just think that's a way we can push back against the culture say no I don't have to entertain you you don't always have to have uh an iPad in front of you it's good for you to look around and go I'm bored what am I going to do so that's um that's helpful and can we and introducing them to the world it's an amazing world it's not boring I mean that's the thing I think I love watching in my kids um it you know like I just see this oh wow like I have a son who loves to garden with me and he's interested in things he wants like one day he asked me where do grits come from and I was like well corn I think you know I didn't even well so he grows his own corn he decided to plant his own corn in the backyard he grew it and he made his own grits from scratch you know he was like no I want I want to try this out and I I think um I will say this especially when it comes to boys we may need to let let them take some more risk than we're comfortable with um one of the big things when he was 13 we did let him get a miter saw which terrified me I had these images of him cutting off his fingers but I realize when I look back that got him outside it got him in a workshop rather than being like on a video game a video game feels safer but I would say it's much more dangerous than tools and so I think sometimes allowing them to climb trees to you know be outdoors to not be watching them every moment um that for some parents is it feels irresponsible and I would say that's a worthy risk I think part of why we give them screens is we don't want them outside we're scared someone's going to snatch them or whatever you know and yeah take precautions you know all of those things don't take unnecessary risk I think our kids should play outside and climb trees and live in the world God created and they're going to get interested in things that's that's the rubber where the rubber meets the road do I believe in the sovereignty of God over Jonathan Height's talking about that now going from a foam we've gone from a play based to a foam based childhood and overprotecting them in the real world and under prototec them um in the in the virtual world and so yeah that's exactly that's exactly right well um and and I don't know it's you you maybe speak just a moment to Media but you have a beautiful sentence you say we talk about being tired of pursuing the perfect picture rather than taking pictures that capture pursuit of life I just love that sentence I thought man that that's the essence of the problem of the Instagram world is I'm not actually enjoying life I mean I do it at my Eve so I can remember oh yeah I was here but you know uh but it's I like I'm enjoying life and yeah oh yeah I take some videos and maybe I'll put some up as opposed to no actually the whole this whole thing is about taking the perfect picture any any I know we talked about before you came at it at the end of as as media and social media Instagram was coming um coming about about any suggestions you would have for parents thinking parents of teens um Looking Back Now yeah I and I think more families are kind of you know bonding together over some of these things you're going to go to more kids Hangouts where the parents say hey put all the phones in the basket yeah I mean there are good things happening um I think schools are getting more conservative like my daughter's school is actually more conservative now than it was with my oldest um meaning they they're not allowed to have cell phones during the day anymore there you know no no texting is allowed um they you know I feel like more of that is is happening but what I will say as a parent who sometimes feels very guilty of this um they are following our example and so if we are nose deep in our screen all day um we can't really get that on them for for turning to their screen if that's how we soothe ourselves entertain ourselves you know and so um some small things I would say if you're a parent of young kids or teenagers read your real Bible at home amen amen the physicality of them seeing that matters it doesn't Ma I mean I know you can be on your phone reading your Bible and that's great I'm always like get it in any way you can but the them seeing what you're doing matters um I still get Time Magazine I still get a news magazine I'm like the only ancient person who does but I think it kind of matters they say I'm reading the news um I still look at my news on my phone I mean now everyone kind of gets their news on their phone but the more we can let go of tech when they are being choosing to put it down when they walk in the room and show them that they're more important than our phone um that's going to matter so I always want to say to parents give them something better than them needing to be on their phone I think we're not talking to our teens anymore we're not creating a community in our family life so they go looking for it elsewhere um and it it might be representative of we've got some work to do in the home how can we play some family games how can I be focused on them how can we change the culture of our home why do they want to go to it so much is it are we shutting down conversation because we're lecturing them all the time I don't want to hang out with someone who's lecturing me all the time either so I mean we've got to do some heart work to ask and maybe even ask them hey you seem like you don't want to hang out with me can you tell me why and they might tell us some really hard truths that we might need to listen to um um and so how can we create a home life where they want to they want to relate to their siblings and they want to relate to us and that's worth fighting for but it's it's hard work to do that that's good yeah creating family identity and unity is hard work so well I want to honor your time I'm G to I'm going to mention three things in the last three chapters because just I want to honor your time and let you comment on anything you talk about so or anything you want to one is a chapter on acceptance you talk about the garage story backing into the garage and how your dad accepted you but what I thought was really interesting in that chapter is then you also talk about rules are an outworking of grace and grace offers consequences and I don't I don't think young parents see the idea of acceptance and consequences going together Grace is overlooking consequences so you can comment on that or then you had the chapter on being available well and you do the same thing again which is you talk about there's margin there's time to teach to empathize to listen and then you turn it around and you say and it's okay to have boundaries that we're pushing them towards independence so availability doesn't mean 247 availability any you want to comment on either one of those or both or I mean I just thought those were so excellent because it is acceptance but there is consequence it is availability but there's limitations on that because you're a married person you have a work you have a job Etc yeah yeah basically I gave no easy answers is what you're saying which is true no that's and it is actually true I mean the thing and is all of it right we're just we got to be prayer you we want someone to say yeah be available 24 hour 24/7 because that's an easy answer and as I think we both know in paren there are not easy answers it's a onward trajectory with the Lord and yeah so that that one about Grace with our kids you can't actually give Grace if you have no rules yeah I mean God's grace comes to us and that while we were still sinners Christ died for us you you know I mean there there's the what we receive is Grace when but but it's because we we couldn't do it on our own and so I think we have to have standards and in our home so it's not letting down the standards but how I um interact with my child who has failed in some way am I doing it as a fellow sinner in need of Grace or am I doing it as someone whose law has been transgressed and I am here to get give you retribution those are two totally different perspectives and I think we should be full of compassion because as 50 as a 50 year old I've walked with the Lord since I was 14 36 years and I still am a beggar for mercy and for grace in my own life and if I can't be compassionate on my 14-year-old there's something wrong with my heart I'm like the unmerciful servant who's demanding Perfection from my child when I can't give it myself and so I think it's it's more our heart attitude as we deal with their failures in our home even like their lack of respect their Thro slamming the doors they're doing things you know we can meet that with compassion I'm not saying acceptance of behavior that's wrong but we can still be compassionate and understanding and then we can say hey how should you have come in the door today tell me what that should have looked like when they're a little bit cooler we can ask some of those questions and what I would say is normally in those moments kids know what they did wrong they're willing to apologize but they don't when you know when we come in they come in hot and we come in hot it just leads to a bad argument um and I think we need to have the maturity as the older one in the room to to deal with compassion as they're dealing with hard days in real life too um and sometimes I think we say I can't deal with your room being messy today because my life is so stressful well guess what Mom we got to deal with that stuff we you know we we've got to be able to deal with it and so I would just say we've got to put our own self side sometimes and and really try to shape and Shepherd this child and that takes self-sacrificial love um it doesn't take removal of the standard it takes sacrificing our own desires sometimes to be patient and kind I'm to display fruit the fruit of God's spirit regardless of how my child interacts with me and that's being a Christian parent yeah yeah that's yeah that's so good I mean just holding these ideas I don't know if you want to say intention or but just this idea that yes my this idea my mom my dad accept me and there are rules and there are consequences and my mom and dad is they are available but no they go out on dates they um you know you said you had to go back to work and that therefore at a certain time they're taking more consequences and that's good we're not doing everything for them so that's really good I'm going to pull out one line from your last paragraph and then give you the final word but I think this needs to be shouted from the rooftop scripture clarifies what is loving which I just think man that's a battle that we're in um you know Jesus said Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline so there times love is does rebuke times it does discipline so yeah that whole final chapter on affection just I want I want my kids to think know that I'm loving but having said that and biblically loving well let me just give you um just the last word here um what what would you speak if you were speaking to a a a group of moms with teenagers and then how would you what would you say to a group of moms that are young moms starting out there four four five six sevs any any I mean maybe the same or things you would emphasize differently yeah I think to both I would say the most important relationship in your life is your relationship with the Lord and it's not your relationship with your children or your husband those are important relationships but you have to be fostering your time in the word and in prayer if you want to be able to um lead them well and and that is going to transform us I don't know how it happens um but I know it does happen somehow um you will never regret spending 30 minutes to an hour with the Lord every day and I I want to say to young moms it actually is possible it doesn't feel possible but it really is possible um whether it's during children's nap times or it's putting you know while you're holding a screaming baby and you put verses in your ears it's you know we have more access to to getting God's word in our minds than ever um but we have to prioritize it and I I just would say whether you're the mom of a 2-year-old for a 20-year-old um that's going to change who you are as a person and so that will change how you parent and Psalm 1 tells us that blessed is the man who um meditates on the law day and night he's like a tree planted by a stream whatever he does prospers and I can say there's nothing I want more to prosper than my parenting and that starts with my vertical relationship with the Lord and that's going to impact my horizontal relationship with my children and my husband thanks that's that's that's good that doesn't yeah it doesn't matter whether your kids are two or 12 or 18 so yeah well the book is parenting with hope raising teens for Christ in a secular age and man it's it is Gospel focused and encouraging and filled with hope so um it's been a joy to talk with you Melissa so thanks thanks for being taking time to be on the podcast thanks so much for having me [Music] you've been listening to the discipl making parent podcast for more information about the book The discipl Making parent visit the disciplemaker tocom