Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age with Melissa Kruger of The Gospel Coalition #393 #podcast | Word First

I already know that this is going to be a fantastic episode because Melissa and I have been talking for 15 minutes and I realized that we weren't even recording and it sounded like we were just having the conversation of a lifetime so Melissa welcome to the show thank you for being here thanks so much for having me this is such a joy um immediately we connected uh because apparently you used to live like right where I live like old stomping grounds you went to Carolina so you root for the right color blue we were both high school English teachers like we both love dogs we both love Memoirs it's a whole thing um so this is just already I'm so excited about this conversation um so let's have you just go ahead and give us the Melissa 101 so tell us who you are what you do and how you got to where you are today yeah well my name is Melissa um I am currently serving as the vice president for the Gospel Coalition which is a website and a lot of other things we have a big conference and I work in discipleship programming um and that's what I do now I um have three great kids I have a 23 year old a 20 year old and a 17-year-old and I'm married to Mike who is president of Reformed Theological Seminary and um you know how I got to where I am today I always say is God's grace it was not my plan but um somehow the Lord gets us where he wants us and so that's what what I always say is a very circuitous route um through many different jobs and a variety of things and somehow I have ended up um writing books in in this world so it's a surprise to me I love it uh I learned that this book uh that you are releasing and by the time this airs your book will already be out but parenting with hope raising teens for Christ in a secular age um will already be out and it's like your what 16th book something like that book number 16 yes which I don't know how that happened yes incredible well as someone who is in the process of releasing book huge accomplishment um well I love your your story so go back um like I mentioned in the beginning you were a high school English teacher or not English but you were a high school teacher at some point and um so tell us that story of like what LED you from teaching to working in Ministry and and that that bit of a uh yeah that circuitous route I believe you said yeah well I mean what's even crazier I was a high school math teacher you're right to assume maybe I was an English teacher because I ended up working in Ed I was an English teacher so that's why like I my brain was like on that wiring well and it would make a lot of sense when you end up writing books but somehow I went from math to um to writing and it actually really started just because I um I taught for years and my husband and I lived overseas while he was working as PhD and I even taught over there and then we had our first child and I started staying home and at that point I started um leading Bible studies in my community and honestly it was the time before there were a thousand different Bible studies to do um now there are so many good resources but at the time there just weren't as many and so I started writing Bible studies for my small group I said hey I can just write a few questions and we'll do them and then women would miss as women do and so then I'd write up a summary explaining what they had missed and um it kind of just went from there people kept saying other churches would say can I use your Bible study I heard you wrote this whole study and then um as things go they did and I my first book was released in 2012 it was actually on the topic of Envy um and it was called the Envy of Eve and it was from a Bible study I had done on the Book of Joshua and it so that there were some themes I saw in there that overlapped and I ended up writing there and then I will say this in that in those books when you hear 16 you think trade books three of those books are children's books and let me just say they're a lot easier and more fun to write than trade books because a book is a book Melissa no downplay no just say just children's books no no no no no that is not allowed here well they're a lot easier let me say that you know they're like uh really and they're the they're so much fun because you get lovely pictures and all these things so um but yeah it's I I am I have always what I will say that is this I've always loved reading I've always kept a journal um since I was about 15 I've been writing out prayers to the Lord and just um always writing that always a part of my life I just didn't expect it to become my job I always love hearing people's backstories that's I mean I think that's part of why I even started a podcast was I'm really just fascinated by people's stories their origin stories like I love a I love the Marvel movies where you get the origin story of the superhero like you know um and and so I I'm just I love that route of how you kind of almost stumbled into it accidentally um well so that kind of leads us into the conversation um that for you know why I decided to have you on and and so much of the heart behind your book so obviously you know you work at the Gospel Coalition but you've been you know in Ministry for a while and not only do you have experience with Parenting teenagers but also um teaching teenagers and and one thing I love that you said before we started recruit practice with teenagers before you had teenagers of your own um and so this topic in particular you know so I I'll tell you my kids are 10 and eight and so we are in the stage of especially with my daughter like we're in the tween age um and the tween age is just navigating the tween age is a whole different thing that I don't think I was really prepared for it's amazing in some ways and it is also incredibly hard um in others um and then I you know so many of my friends are also in that same stage but then um you know a couple of my my good friends like their kids are graduating high school this year and so it is uh it's navigating this stage of parenting is so there's so many layered challenges and you know I remember thinking back to like when I was Raising you know when I had a newborn and a toddler and it's like you're in the weeds and your kids can't do anything for themselves and it's just like you're tired and you're touched out and there's just all of it all the big feelings and it's like that doesn't go away entirely it's like it's just new challenges and new stressors and new all of these things um but there's also so much Beauty to be found and one thing that I've kind of found as a pet peeve that's why I'm setting all of this up to ask this question is in our culture in general is there is this uh really pervasive attitude towards parenting where so often we say to to moms especially but parents in general but moms get the brunt of it whatever stage of parenting they're in whether it's a newborn a toddler a tween a teen we it's like we say well just you wait just you wait it's like this constant just you wait it's only and like implied like it's going to get worse it's going to get harder or or sometimes I hear the oh you know just you wait it's it's going to get better but more often than not I feel like we're in this just you wait it's going to get hard parenting teens is the worst it's going to be miserable years and that drives me crazy and so I'm curious like why do you think that is the case in our culture why have we created this attitude around parenting is miserable Parenting teenagers and tween is just brutal work and you just have to like get through it you have to survive until they're adults and they finally like you again why do you think that is the way it is yeah I can remember people saying oh little people little problems big people big problems and you know you just leave and you're you're carrying little people around and you're absolutely exhausted and you're thinking this feels like a big problem I can't even imagine you know if you're telling me it's going to be harder and I think the reality is um I think parenting is hard in every season so let me just say that I think there are struggles and joys in every season but I actually just think that's life you know if we if we were to go back to college we'd be like I mean memory sometimes can be oh it was so fun what a great time in life and I forget the test I forget the stress I forget that there were really hard things in it so I think sometimes it's we get into parenting teens and all we remember are the cute little two-year-old hugs and we forget what it was like to get a two-year-old dressed who didn't want to get dressed and who's kicking you and throwing a complete meltdown and we just forget we are forgetful we tend to remember look back with fondness and forget the hard things of whatever season we might have exited so I think there's that but I also think there is this narrative in culture that says oh teenagers are awful to be around and you know they don't want their parents involvement and they kind of almost um demonize teens and it's just been really interesting to me I loved teaching teens I loved being a high school teacher and I loved my own teens I still have one teenager I still have one 17-year-old and I I think it's just been um a really fun season but part of it I would say is allowing them to grow up and seeing them as full humans um but yet not quite adults and being patient with who they are and where they are developmentally so I think we can be be really impatient that they're not acting like an adult and then at the same time we don't allow them freedom and responsibility so we're you know there's this battle going on in some sense and we are right as parents to give good boundaries like that's a good thing to do but at the same time if I'm parenting my twoyear my my 12-y old like I did my two-year-old that's a parenting problem that's actually not their fault uh you know it's one thing to tell your two-year-old something and H have expectations but as our children age it's not that the principles of our parenting changes but our practice of parenting has to change it has to shift because we're trying to prepare them to make decisions on their own and they're actually able to understand things in a really different way and so I would say and what I've tried to get at in this book is these can be really great years um but we have to at some point um die to oursel in certain ways and our our pride you know if a kid kind of speaks to us and maybe not the best attitude maybe you know there's going to be bad attitudes they're going to be Slamm doors they're going to be days when they don't want to be around anyone um I'm like that sometimes right and I you know I'm I'm almost 50 and I still struggle to control my emotions sometimes so can't we be gracious with a 13-year-old who also might be struggling to control their emotions along the way and so I think um that helps us to kind of parent with with a little more hope when we realize there's this is a stage they're going through how can I Shepherd them well through it and and be kind of a soft place for them to be able to have a bad day um I think that changes how we walk through this season with them and I think we can do it with a lot of Hope and a lot of joy and a lot of enjoyment um but you know it takes it takes some soul work on our part to able to do that yeah it does well one of the things I know you talk about in your book that just something you said just here is what kind of sparked this this question is the difference between a Gracious Home and a permissive home and you know especially when we talk about like giving our kids space to grow up space to make mistakes um and uh you know in fact I had a conversation with my daughter recently about this about how she was like Mom I feel like you don't want me to grow up and I was like no that's not it honey you know and and some ways like it's it's finding the balance of she wants to grow up faster than she actually is growing up and so I'm trying to help her and walk with her growing as she grows up but in an age appropriate way if that makes sense you know rather than like shoving her into maybe a an age stage that she's not actually in yet if that makes sense um and so uh I guess that that idea of a Gracious Home versus a permissive home in which you do set boundaries you do allow your kids to make mistakes but you're also not letting your kids parent you or like your kids aren't dictating and running the household um which is a an interesting balance to strike so I'd love for you to kind of talk about those differences yes I and I think the reality is you can only be gracious in a home where there actually are rules because the reality is that we're gracious because mistakes get made um you know so there have to actually be standards in in some ways to say hey I know that um curfew was at this time and you were late um and let's let's talk about what happened let's work through um why why that happened why didn't you text me why didn't you let me know or you know you can have those real conversations but a permissive home is actually proven to have bad outcomes for kids um we think we're you know being the great parent because we are letting them do whatever they want to do oh if you want to be on your cell phone if you want to be out till 2 am that you oh I'm just being a nice parent it's actually I mean proven that that's not good for kids and they actually don't feel safe being in control of their own Universe um they they need boundaries it's good for them to have boundaries it's not good for them to have boundaries that are so restrictive that they can't learn to make some decisions on their own you know so it's this it really is a dance as our kids age you know we're we're kind of it's I describe it in the book like um when you learn to drive a stick shift you have to know just how much to press on the gas and press on the clutch at the same time or El but you might stall sometimes it's a tough it's a tough thing to do and um the same as giving our parent giving our kids some space to make mistakes but we want them to be like mistakes maybe like hey you got a zero on that assignment because you didn't do it you know but I I'm not going to do your homework for you I'm not going to do that well that's different than um making the mistake of drinking and driving right that's going to have a lot bigger consequences so we want to make sure we're putting boundaries that prevent certain types of behaviors as much as we can as much as in our power to to help them with but sometimes I think it's okay to say yeah I'm not going to check up on all your homework assignments and I'm going to let you bear the consequences of of those failures and that can still be gracious to them you know to let them experience that um which is different than being permissive and letting them do whatever they want to do if that if that makes sense oh absolutely I actually love the image of uh that sh shared of of driving a stick shift cuz I drive a stick shift love driving a stick shift and I remember those early days of when my parents were teaching me how to drive a stick and um and in fact like the the pro tip my dad taught me because he had let me just kind of you know jerk forward and stall out a bunch of times um but one of the things that he had taught me and he's like there's a little trick and he's like actually you know put your foot on the brake put your foot on the clutch and then take your foot off the brake and slowly take your foot off the clutch as you feel the car start to move forward on its own if you take too much off the car will stall out but if you slowly remove your foot off the clutch and you slowly F put your foot on the gas as the car is starting to move forward on its own that gives you that feeling of that that push and pull and I actually think that's a beautiful image of like if you take your foot off the the if you if you remove the boundaries way way way too fast and then all of a sudden like you're going to you know you're going to stall out and you're going to jerk forward it's going to be really painful but as you slowly start to remove some of those kind of parameters around your kids and and slowly let them out into the world a little bit further the goal is obviously that you release you know fully uh capable human beings into into the world rather than just like opening the front door and shoving them out and being like all right good luck we'll see you exactly exactly they're going to feel just as lost in that you know and I don't know if you felt this way as a teacher I can remember there were certain teachers who had new rules and the kids didn't like those classes I can remember one student coming to me and say saying that teacher doesn't care about us she never gives us homework she doesn't care if we learn she just lets us run you know the classroom you know whatever but I can tell she doesn't actually care about us and I think that's the problem of a permissive home it's actually saying I don't really I'm not really that worried about you um in some sense just do whatever you want well that's that's just not great for kids whereas a a home with appropriate boundaries is saying hey I I really care about you um I want to help you get through this life I want you to be able to drive on your own but I'm here to help until you can do that that and one of the other things that you talk about um is as kids are transitioning and this has been admittedly like raising my hand something that has been hard for me in my parenting is is you know we it of course makes sense that our kids transition into new stages of Life of course the newborn stage is different than the toddler stage and of course the toddler stage is different than the prek age and the prek age from the elementary age and middle school and high school and young adult like of course we know that that makes sense but the reality is is we as parents also have to change as well we can't parent our kids and of course not like in a literal sense like we can't treat our high schoolers like newborns but we can't parent and have the same mindset and even see our kids the same way when they're in high school as we did when they were toddlers I liked what you said about seeing them as you know whole independent human beings that's so important and I think like um that's actually something in my adulthood I've I've had to shift my on how I viewed my parents um because you know my dad he's going to be 80 this year and it really wasn't until the last couple years that I was like I came to a full complete understanding of like oh yeah my dad when he was parenting me like he was a whole independent human being who had a whole life before I came along and his life wasn't just like centered around being my dad you know what I mean like it's hard for us as kids to transition that in our brain um but then on the flip side as a parent it's also hard to transition that you know as you start to see your kids and and I would be interested for you parenting young adults like where they're really like they're no longer under your quote unquote like control you're you know not that you're controlling your kids but like they're no longer under your influence like they once were they are now independent human beings who can live their own lives create their own lives um make their own lives and so that's it's important for you to shift those mindsets um so I'd love for you to touch on that about what that process looks like as for parents to change and adapt as their kids also change and go from season to season yes I think um when I think about those transitions look I mean we need to be praying in the little years but as we are making those transitions into the older years with our kids I think what we've all learned when I've looked around with my friends we've all been like all we can do is pray you know I have one friend right now whose son is in Ranger school and I mean basically he's being starved and you know made to run and do push-ups and all these hard awful things and she doesn't hear from him for weeks at a time while he's in Ranger school and it's like all you can do is pray and so there are these things we're watching our kids walk through that we can't solve we can't make better we can't just put a Band-Aid on it and kiss it and make it go away and so part of the transition that has to actually start in the younger years we should be doing this in the younger years but I think we believe we have a little bit of a measure of control in the young years because we're we're there with them every moment we're a lot more active in the day-to-day of their lives but as our kids are older and we start to really walk alongside them and we have to say hey I'm here for you but I can't solve the issues I can't you know change things and but but I think we can show them the path to how do I walk with God Whatever May Come how how am I a prayerful person how am I a person who lives my life in light of what the Bible teaches and different things like that we can model it we can walk alongside them we can't make them do those things we can't make them really believe anything we start to find out as they get to these ages and so I think part of the transition is just seeing them as an independent human being so when they have questions about the rules we have or even the faith we have or things like that I think really just being curious with a teenager is a great way to start and say hey tell me what you're feeling about that why don't you like the fact that I'm not letting you I'm only getting you a dumb phone rather than a smartphone tell me why that upsets you so much what's it about because for different kids it's going to be a different reason and so part of I think growing up with our teen in some ways is remaining curious about who they are and not making assumptions about why they're pushing back on something just like I would be curious with my friend who maybe has a different opinion than me um I would say hey why do you think that and so I think there's a level of that that we can bring to the parenting our teen conversation that sometimes forgotten because as parents we just want to control um our teen rather than help understand who they are and get to know them as a person um and so I think there's a lot of things we can do as parents to really engage with them that's very different than we we did with maybe a two-year-old but part of that can only happen when we as parents can let go of our child being a representative of ourself um and I think it's really tempting as a parent sometimes to um place a lot of our identity and in our team and so whether it's the sports they play the college they get into whatever that becomes about us and not about them and that's I think when we fall into some pits as parents because we start trying to control who they become rather than walk alongside them as they're becoming who God made them to be okay I love this so much because this is a conversation I have had very recently with quite a few people about how um and I think that you know there's Nuance in all of that so I feel like I have in all of this so I feel like I have to make that disclaimer because this is not I'm not I'm I'm paintting with a broad brush here um but one thing that we see so much is when a kid Es at really any age but especially teenagers tween things like that um when a kid like misbehaves or mess up we often immediately as a culture and online the internet warriors uh immediately place blame on the parents like immediately and I'm not saying again Nuance I'm not saying that this is every case because certainly there are cases where it is clearly a reflection of some things that have happened at home but we see where it's like oh well what you know kid says something it's like oh well we know what's being said at home or kid does something oh well we know that they're just doing what was modeled at home and I'm like you can get out of here with that because like my kids for sure have said things before where I'm like excuse me where did you hear that and like they heard it on the bus they heard other kids say it on the bus and so I'm like you didn't hear that from me you didn't hear that word from me like my 8-year-old son came home one day and was and repeated a a an exploitive that he heard on the bus and I was like whoa you know and he's like well this kid said it and I was like oh heavens to Betsy like I just you know I was not prepared at all um but like that's a he's a whole independent human being who like heard something and then he's repeating it so like but he didn't hear it at home and so um you know so I I do think that there is this this problem where we immediately often jump to placing blame quote unquote on kids for like or BL placing the blame on parents for what kids behavior is rather than looking at it from a no these are entirely independent human beings who have sinful Natures at heart who are going to make mistakes and like stuff happens like I had incredible parents and I made some wildly irresponsible and stupid choices as a kid because I was a selfish broken teenager um but on the flip side like you were saying is then we often as parents then place our own identities in our kids Behavior as like if they are misbehaving then it is immediately a reflection on us we must be the worst we must have parented them incorrectly and I I think the fa really falls on both ourselves and also like cultural norms cultural expectations as a whole is like we've we've done this to ourselves as a culture and then we just continue the crazy cycle as parents and I mean would you would you agree with that sentiment or would you disagree yeah I think any parent whenever our kid hits a snag unfortunately my first response is what did I do wrong I mean look it's so funny like my kids actually none of them have really dated in high school and I'm sitting there like oh why aren't my kids dating did I do do they not think we have a good marriage you whatever like no matter what they're doing but if they were all dating I'd be thinking oh did you not get enough love at home so you feel like the need to always have a boyfriend or girlfriend you know like we we always think whatever they're doing is about us and I've had to really step back and say huh maybe the world doesn't revolve around me maybe it just is sometimes you know what what whatever it might be on these things and when my kid makes a mistake I think most when any of our teens make a mistake I think most of us jump really quickly to what did I do wrong rather than how can I come alongside my teen in this moment and help them and I think that's the more helpful response at that moment to say this isn't about me um it's really about how am I going to help this teen in this moment and what do what does it mean to show up for them as the mature adult in the room um because I think so often we go into an emotional Tail Spin which actually isn't helping our teenager at all they need us to be fully present fully able to be the adult in the room and they you know it's normal that they're going to make mistakes I mean that's a part of growing up and so the the thing we have to show them and model for them is hey what do we do when we make mistakes how do we walk through these things what does it look like to say hey I'm sorry what does it look like to if you know if you break something pay back what you broke or whatever whatever it might be and helping our kids learn how to work work through failure learning how to make a mistake is actually a life lesson how do you make a mistake and then what do you do and how do you walk through it and we can really do that but we can't do that if we're always making their situations about us um it's not healthy for our kid and it's not healthy for us either so I like I mentioned at the beginning Love Story um I know that you were a teenager once and you probably made some mistakes do you have a particular story maybe that involves a garage door um that you would like to share yes oh my gosh it was so bad I was rushing out of the door um because I was late to getting to work and so in my rush rush rush I um turn the car on and backed up and immediately heard the crash and I had forgotten to open the garage door when was backing up in my hurry and you know I have to say my mom heard the crash and came outside she saw it and she immediately I don't know how she had the wherewithal to do this so fast she immediately said take my car I know you're late for work go on to work she said don't worry I'll I'll I'll handle it and um it was just this picture of it's okay I know what's needed right now um you need to get to work and take my car and and and and then by the time I got home I walk in and my dad just looks at me he's like girl what on Earth were you thinking but he he didn't he never yelled at me he never got mad at me they knew it was a mistake and they covered it so beautifully um you know and I I I looked back on that and even when I was riding it when I was writing that that story in the book um I was tearing up just thinking about it how many people would have a very different story and the impact that that would make um if I had been yelled at if I had been belittled if I had been told you know that was the stupidest thing you know you can just imagine all the things that I was saying to myself what was I thinking you know I mean I said all those things and yet my parents just um met me with a lot of Grace and I'll be honest it was one of those things that really transformed me um in a lot of ways but also transformed how I parented I remembered that story as I entered into parenting and I always wanted to be the parent who was gracious with failure when my kids failed I wanted my kids to feel like it was okay to make mistakes in this house and that I was going to be there for them if they did I love that story so much that was why I wanted you to tell it uh because it really is I I'll be honest like it was a story that I really made me think think about okay how do I how do I navigate this with my kids um I mean my kids aren't driving yet Lord help me when they do um I will tell you that's my least favorite moment of parenting is when I have to get in the car with a 15-year-old and you feel like this is not okay this is not nothing about this feels safe or okay nothing about it um yeah I'm I'm really um but I I when I read that story I just immediately was like man that is the kind of parent that I want to be and I've certainly certainly had moments where you know because my kids at eight and 10 like and you know and younger like they've made mistakes where I have certainly not handled it the way I should have where I have been like how could you do this like you know I mean definitely I've definitely done that um but I I I've tried to give myself Grace in that and and also like do it in a way and handle situations in a way when I can and when I have the presence of mind to like okay how can I do this well I mean I had an instant um an instance probably over a year ago gosh maybe two years ago where um one of my children was throwing a ball in the house I told this child please don't throw the ball in the house and next thing I know the ball crashes into a picture frame of my dog that I had just put down um and it like knocked the picture frame off the mantle shattered everywhere and then there's you know there's glass everywhere there's just like the all of it and I just in immediately my child was like oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I mean just like immediately knew and I you know my gut was like this is why I told you not to throw the freaking fall in the H you know and like but then at the same time like I immediately saw the like fear and almost remorse in the face of my child and I just like came at it with compassion and I was like it's okay like it happens you're gonna buy me a new picture frame but also don't throw the ball in the house again and I just you know we just hugged for an extended period of time and it and it ended up being a actually a really sweet moment between us and and um I I don't get that right all the time but I you know I think about as the the the life stages of my children grow and change um and and there will be bigger things like garage doors um you know maybe or or whatever um how do I handle that in a um in a in a god-honoring loving way while also like you know picking it like there might be times where like there's some accountability that needs to happen here you know in addition to um the grace and really inviting the Holy Spirit into that uh discussion and and all of that um well I want to transition a little bit because of that and I that is um to really this Faith filled piece and obviously this is this is your a huge heart or a huge part of your book your heart for parenting teens is helping them navigate also their Faith um in a world that um is increasingly um drawing teens away from the faith um and so that can be really really hard uh to navigate that's a whole another you know aspect of this and so um you know there's sort of two camps here there's um the the camps who of kids who are raised in really like just amazing strong Christian homes but still struggle and like they leave the faith and so you have parents who are just like I did everything right that I I think I did everything right and then you also have the kids who um are really like they don't they're not leaving the faith but they are just deeply wrestling they don't know how to handle um the the peer pressure the the just cultural things all of it um I just so I wanted to touch on this because this obviously is an incredibly uh important aspect of all of so I'd love for you to kind of help um guide us as as parents in general and anybody who's listening who even just has influence in a child's life um so even if you're listening you don't have kids but you work with young adults you you work with with teenagers you're a teacher maybe you're a coach of some kind um you know you have influence in in the lives of children whether you realize it or not and so maybe you're the fun ant or the the funcle you know their fun uncle whatever you know um so how how do you help them navigate their faith in a world that is increasingly uh you know attacking our kids in a lot of ways yeah well and let me just speak for a second to people who maybe don't have teens or don't have kids and and and I love what you just said about including them because sometimes you're better at it than the parent meaning in the teens's life so that person um that coach or that um cool 20 something at church um that your teen seeing that person in church um being a person of faith can have such an impact um I I hope people don't discount that because it's so important I prayed for all my kids Lord please give them mentors because there may be a day they don't want to talk to me about faith matters or things and so when you give them that cool 20s something year old who loves you and can speak truth truth when maybe they don't want to hear it from me um because you know it's pretty normal for them to go through a period where they're like yeah I mean I've heard enough of you for the past 16 years um but but I would just say um one of the best ways we can share our faith the F or maybe the first way we share our faith with our teens is by actually participating in a regular basis ourselves and growing in our own faith um I think teens can spot a fake more than anybody else and so if our Christianity is simply surface level um to kind of look good um kind of outward but not inward our teens are going to understand that and they see what's happening in our home every day um they really see what we truly value and which is kind of terrifying but the reality for us what it means is what what we press into is not being perfect we press into abiding in God ourselves being a person who um is trying to grow in their faith again that doesn't mean we're perfect but we're pursuing knowing god and I think that really speaks to our kids we're not saying I know everything about God we say I'm a person of faith and I am trying to get to know God better will you come alongside me and try to get to know him better too and that's really different than presenting myself as the EXP expert um when my kid has questions about faith I can be like that's a really good question let's investigate that together um rather than I think sometimes as parents we feel like we have to have all the answers and if we don't somehow our kid is that means they're going to go yeah fully down other paths and they're not going to believe and so I think um there's something really powerful that we discount how powerful it is just to be a person who is Walking With Jesus ourselves and abiding in his word and being a prayerful person and praying with our teen I we have a epidemic of teen anxiety and depression right now and they're they're real and um there are a lot of ways yeah a lot of things going on with that with social media and all all the things that our kids are facing right now and it can feel overwhelming um but one thing I did in the research for the book was kids who go to church services once a week um have an 18% higher degree of happiness in their later in their youth and so there are some things that we're just doing as habits of the Christian Life that can really help kids that doesn't mean that all kids in youth group will never struggle with anxiety or depression they will but the small things we're doing as people of faith can really help them in in this journey and all the struggles that they're facing in our society today um so we're trying to set before them hey hey here's an example of what it means to walk with God the world's going to tell you it doesn't matter the world's going to be shouting at you that you know choosing all these other things is way better but I think what we have to offer is you know so much richer and so much better and so it's ke it's we continue to put that before the kids and show them hey this is life and this really is life abundant and those other paths I mean and look I I mean if you just go down a list of songs out there that talk about like how unsatisfying life is and how unsatisfying Fame is I I did a recent study on it every decade had a song like I Can't Get No Satisfaction or you know basically every every different generation had some song that expressed no matter what I get out of this life it's not quite enough and so I think um one one way we help our te is actually wrestling with what do you think is going to give you life and do you really think that path that someone out there is telling you he going to give it to you um it's really not going to and having good and healthy conversations with them can can be just part of that discussion of faith in the home that involves listening and it involves sharing with them our own experience in a lot of ways I love how you touch on that modeling aspect of it um and and showing them like just you know it's it's a so often especially with teens like you said like they they spot a phony and the uh from a mile away and the importance of showing not just telling like not that do as I say but not as I do but actually in this case like do as I do and not as I say or something I don't know I've probably completely butchered that but you know what I'm saying is like this idea of like we have to get to this point where we are modeling these behaviors in our own lives and and then it becomes a reflection um you know and so uh it it's been interesting for us as a family um we uh have been involved with a Church Plant for uh about almost two and a half years now and um you know every single Sunday morning like my husband drives the trailer we're set up and tear down church and every single Sunday morning my husband like drives the trailer from our house to the high school where we set up you know and we're there every Sunday from 730 in the morning until 1: in the afternoon um and our kids are with us the whole time and um but what's been really interesting to see is our kids actually so I usually drive separate I mean my husband and I get there around the same time but he's always leading leaving a little bit before me because the truck drives slower with the trailer and my kids almost always clamor to ride with him and get there first and that's been actually really cool to see like that they don't dread going to church on Sunday mornings and like they know that it's going to be a long day but yet they're still excited but I think it's because they also see that like this is all of us together are doing this like we're not um you know my husband plays in the worship team uh he plays you know multiple instruments I sing and I play guitar I preach occasionally my husband husband preaches occasionally my 10-year-old daughter is now actually serving in the children's program and so she is helping with the the toddlers And so it's like we're modeling this like we're all in this together and I my prayer has been that this is the kind of thing that lasts with them and they see the the longevity of this and that this wasn't just a a season but something that we really believed in and that became theirs too like giving them some ownership um and so that's that's been really key so just what you said just really encouraged me in my own like cuz sometimes like I I can look at my husband and be like are they just going to be totally burnt out and be done and like just hate this and I don't and like they're going to resent us for this like I it's a fear of mine and so I have to actively pray against that yeah it was a fear of mine as well I mean you know my husband was a pastor you know I'm like oh we're going to be those people I really had the same fear that it was just too much you know a little bit like they're going to think wow but you know what I I just discounted what a blessing it could be for them my kids actually know what a good friend is like they it's it's just been fascinating to watch um how growing up in a home where they went to church every week and they knew how to pray with one another they knew how to give it a good apology because we all messed up and we all had to tell each other we were sorry all the time what a rich blessing that's been they have great friendships like my daughter's getting married this Summer I love who she's marrying you know she's yeah she's she's marrying this great guy and um I've just watched the rich blessings of growing up in the church doesn't mean there haven't been hard things there have been yeah we're all we're all we all make mistakes so Christians make mistakes too and they've experienced that and that's painful in its own way but um I can I can definitely say having something bigger than themselves has been this anchor for them they I don't see them questioning like why am I here what's life about they're like oh I'm here because God made me and he created me to glorify him and so you know a lot of kids in a secular age are struggling with that very question my my son um his freshman year of college there were seven suicides at his college and you know I think the reality is like it's it's so tough in a world where you don't know what your purpose is and you've never been told that um we we sometimes think of religion as restrictive I actually think it's lifegiving um what's restrictive is to kind of think wow am I just a bag of molecules that doesn't really matter it's a pretty hopeless world without god um it's a pretty hopeless existence without Christ and so I think um what I've what I've really come to find is that my kids the faith that they've gotten to see lived out through the church has really um just made them a lot more joyful and they've all you as they've gone up to college they've all feel in good churches and I've been so thankful to see that and those churches like my daughter was in college during covid and her when she and her roommates all got covid the church came and brought them meals and things like that so they've gotten to experience these rich blessings that I don't think I could see when even when they were two I just felt like wow this is really tough to take my 2-year-old to church um but it was so when I look back it's been so worth it um to see the effect it's had on them that's such an encouragement to somebody who's just like in a parenting season right behind you bringing up the Caboose um but to hear that so uh thank you for sharing that um well we are I could talk to you forever um but uh we're running out of time um so any I I guess my last question um before we go is um is around the the habit of prayer as a family um cultivating a heart of prayer helping our kids know how to pray and and creating a healthy prayer life in in their own lives um because this is something admittedly that I have struggled with I've worked on it a lot and I've come a long way um but it's an area that of growth for us for sure and so I would love for you to kind of share maybe some advice or tips or anything like that has worked well for you in in your family and in your parenting to to cultivate um a habit of Prayer in your parenting and and in your family yeah um we actually pray every morning around the breakfast table that was kind of our habit um and that sounds like how on Earth did that happen what what I will say is this my biggest parenting rule that I used to tell myself is my kids only know the home they're growing up in so look we every every one of us convinces our kids to brush their teeth every day you know and they just think that's normal and it is normal hopefully it's normal you know for all of us um and so the reality is we just started at the family breakfast table we all would get down there they all knew what time they needed to be down there and we would just have about 5 to 10 minutes of prayer every morning and it wasn't a big thing it wasn't perfect it was I always say aim for patterns not Perfection it doesn't have to be every single morning or whatever but we had a card for each day and on that card it would have different prayer things but every card had a different name from our family and so like Monday might be Kate Tuesday might be John Wednesday Emma Thursday might be me Friday might be my husband and um but also on those cards were different things in our world that we were praying for maybe their principal maybe a missionary that we support Maybe a friend who's going through a hard time and we just had a card for each day and so when it was Tuesday we picked out Tuesday's card we we whoever the person was shared something they had that go going on that week another person prayed for them and prayed for the card it was that simple it was not hard and yet what I can say is those 5 to 10 minutes at The Breakfast Table every morning formed a community with our kids that is so tight and they we laughed at The Breakfast Table so much um we we those those little moments of connection make such a big difference and so we had that that was our scheduled time of prayer but that gave us the freedom to just pray um at other times when things were going on and it didn't feel weird if that makes sense so you know simple things like I'm worried someone might not ask me to prom in that moment I'd say hey let's just pray about it let's just pray um let's ask God to that someone would ask you a prom or whatever it might be that comes up in our kids' life and so it almost having this schedule time again that was like five to 10 minutes this yeah that's we spend that much time on social media every day easy it wasn't it wasn't long time allowed for that habit to be a normal muscle in our home so then when other things were going on we would just have random prayers and I can say it was one of those just it connected us to each other and also connect us to God and it allowed kids to learn how do I deal with the hard things of life well if I don't know what to do I can pray and so as we're developing that muscle they're developing that muscle and it's something that we can do together I think that is so helpful uh that I I love that and so that I hope that that really helps somebody else that's listening um that might be struggling in this area just keeping it simple um and I also love that too patterns over Perfection that is so good that is that's just like a life hack right there um well Melissa as we are wrapping up here um where can people best connect with you tell them where to get the book all the things yeah you can find out anything you want to at my website Melissa beer.com um you can find the book anywhere you know all the places that it's so easy to get books now um and I write for the go Coalition so you can find articles and Things by me there so all those places they'll there'll be links awesome thank you so much you are such a gift and uh thanks for your wisdom and and for being with us thanks so much for having me it's been so fun