Top Theology Stories of 2022 | Word First

welcome to a special edition of gospel bound featuring let's talk I'm Colin Hansen I'm the host of gospel bound and I'm joined by my good friend and a colleague Melissa Kruger one of the hosts of let's talk you're listening to a bonus season and episode and we wanted to take you behind the scenes look back on the big stories and trends of the year of Our Lord 2022 and thank you for listening and encouraging us in this work hey Colin it's good to be back it was all fun last year I don't think a lot of people realize the episode last year that we recorded together the most downloaded ever in the history of gospel bound uh I don't think that's a coincidence it's all it's all you Melissa if it's true Colin and Melissa regular conversation but it's super fun to be here and um A lot's happened since our last time together um and we'll jump in and you've written a great article top 10 theological stories for this year I mean there are certain things I don't think when I was looking at your article I was like wow a year ago we never could have imagined some of these things um and we'll talk about those in a minute but you have something I'm super excited about coming out in the next year um can you tell us about the project that you've been working on well there it is thank you for anyone watching on video there it is Timothy Keller his spiritual and intellectual formation uh you know as I was as I was working on this book Melissa I I thought about uh the question that you get asked a lot as an author how long have you been doing this and I thought well in some ways three years really busily but then in many ways for 12 years uh 15 uh 12 years working at The Gospel Coalition uh which Tim had co-founded 15 years since I've known Tim at the beginning of the Gospel Coalition when I was still working at Christianity today but in a lot of ways been working on on this project for uh for 20 years since I've been been in journalism and and studying Evangelical history and so um I mean I'm eager for people to see this book I may even have copies early January February 7th is the pub date on the book um I think a lot of people are going to assume Melissa that it's a that it's a biography and it is in some ways but it's not like a traditional biography um first of all Tim's still around and he's doing great work uh the latest on his and his health has been been very positive with his pancreatic cancer diagnosis uh second it's not a critical biography um because I'm close with Tim I admire Tim I appreciate Tim I work with Tim and so um and so it's it's not it's not that kind of thing it's also not primarily A Narrative of his of his life uh Tim does not love to speak about himself um that's one of the reasons I think people are going to find the book to be so fascinating I had a friend um read the first three chapters which by the way if you pre-order the book uh go to timothykellerbook.com give us that pre-order information we will send you uh the first three chapters of the book right now you can listen right now we'll send you a bunch of other bonus content in fact um a list that Tim put together the most important books written in his lifetime not by him by other people and I also put together a list of the top books that will help you to understand Tim because that's a really a lot of what the what the book is focused on but anyway I had a I had a friend who started to read the first three chapters and she made a comment about not knowing a lot about Tim's home life growing up and well it wasn't Tim who talked to me about that it was Tim's sister who talked with me about that and that's really what the book is a lot of it's talking with the best man at Tim's uh Tim and Kathy's wedding uh who also was Tim's best friend in college who was who was there the night that Tim became a Christian he'd been living this kind of double life as he was exploring um his his faith and trying to figure things out this guy's birthday was when um he wakes up and Tim is is lying like on the floor at the foot of the bed his Le he's just been transformed physically you could tell that he'd been transformed by the holy spirit so just talking with people like that or just there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that I was able to get thanks to the permission Tim and Kathy gave not just to me but to all of their friends to talk to me so in that sense you you and I did do many hours of interviews with Tim but I think what I like about the project so much Melissa is that it was based off talking with other people about Tim and Kathy who as you know is a Powerhouse unto herself about that is it seems to embody the whole notion of self-forgetfulness that we all love from Tim Keller yeah I mean and so it's almost like you had to ask other people because he's just not thinking about himself all the time and doesn't want to talk about what he thinks about everything and so I kind of love that that's part of this book that you had to actually go to other sources and he let you I think that's a great thing I can't wait to read it cannot wait I think yeah I think people um they'll be a very I think I was doing the audiobook and there's a very emotional part of the book um where we we learn about Tim's um he had a younger sister uh has a younger sister and had a younger brother uh who died in the 1990s 1998 and died of AIDS and um that's a very emotional part uh just even reading through the book and so there'll be a lot that people will learn not just about him and Kathy's lives I love about Kathy that she was one of the last people to correspond with C.S Lewis as a as a pre-teen uh yeah like I said she's a Powerhouse unto herself so eager that'll be a a fun thing not quite ready for Christmas unless you want to go ahead and pre-order that book and tell people what's going to be coming to them in in early February uh Lord willing so thanks to my friends at uh zonovan reflective for all their great work on that uh Melissa you're always up to a lot uh I would love to know how many years in a row you've published a book at this point of a lot of different varieties you're always you've got one out you've got one that you're thinking about you've got one that you're um you know long you're just kind of stewing around in your head and we'll talk about several of those but I want to talk about a couple things in particular looking back on this last year won a book his grace is enough another one of your children's books and then I'd just love to hear more about as you think back to the gospel Collision Women's Conference in 2022 to some of your some of your favorite memories and what you've seen the Lord do through that book and and through that event yeah yeah um for our conference that you plan absolutely yeah exactly exactly and the conference was really amazing I'm so thankful I mean to get to see all these women gathered around God's word um just getting to sing together it's something that's really difficult to describe um how wonderful it is it feels like a little poor taste I know people say this all the time a little Fortes of heaven and what it'll be our first it's our first in-person normal women's Gathering since 2018. yes there were no masks that was great there were no awkward dismissals because we had to dismiss everyone in like groups like 200. oh I forgot about that with all the different lights that would flash up front to tell you when you could dismiss yeah um so I'm super it was just great yeah what I love about it is I have friends from kind of my real life in Charlotte who were there and then I have friends from all over the a country who we've gotten to know through Ministry connections and it's it's pretty beautiful to get to see and what well that's the taste of heaven right yeah it's because it's so many of those friends from so many different walks of life it's that kind of spiritual Reunion yeah and the and the and the main event is Jesus yeah I mean that's what I love it's it's we it's a conference that really we try to focus on God's word not not the people are there delivering it up in certain ways but it's really let's look at Jesus in a new way and what I loved about this conference we were in the Old Testament but always looking at Jesus how how is he the Rock from which the water poured out you know how how is he symbolizing The Arc of our Salvation you know all of these images that we have in the Old Testament that actually point us to Christ and we ended with that I love the story of David mephibosheth and this beautiful invitation to the king's table and so it was great they were saying there was so many fun things it wasn't just about remembering our joy we got to do this project about sharing the joy and we just found out we were just talking a few minutes ago on our team call about a new Ukrainian and Russian website that came out of that conference to bring articles and gospel messages to people all over the world so I mean it's amazing it's amazing what we get to do I'm pretty thankful about that what about the book children's book yeah and then um I'm excited I had a new kids book come out called his grace is enough and honestly I I have to say I love these little kids book with a special place in my heart this one is really written I've been writing kids books as my kids have actually been aging and so this one is trying to get the message of of what Grace is to young kids so I'm I'm hoping I'm picturing them in a college dorm room maybe thinking I don't know if his grace is enough for me I've done I've made all the wrong choices I've done all the things that people want me not to do and now I find my play myself in the pit of my own making and I just wanted to write a book that hopefully I hoped would ring in their minds when they're two and come back maybe when they're 22 to remind them that his grace is enough it's so big and so free his grace is enough for both you and for me so it was like it was that that that desire to write children's books that will ring in our hearts when we're older that's my that's my hope and to give parents words to know how to talk about Grace it's kind of a hard concept um does that mean that you're not going to get in trouble if you do wrong things in my house you know and so to try to help kids um get an understanding of what Grace is and start those conversations between parents and kids but it's a real joy to get to do so that was that was some of the stuff that came out in our personal lives in 2022 but let's move in um to the top 10 theological stories of 2022. there's an article at TGC on this that everybody can go access I highly encourage you to go read it it's excellent it really is interesting to look back at the past year and think about it in terms of what God is doing in the world but I want to start with um really looking at the world and some difficult stories that have happened in the past year that honestly I don't think um we could have imagined you know even when we look back that this first one especially this SBC report that came out I was pretty shocked by it I you know I don't know how you felt about it I was shocked um yeah I was shocked by the report I guess that's the best way to say it and the cover-up and all the things that had happened in this past year so two your your two of your top 10 stories um deal with basically actual physical abuse I mean sexual abuse in the church and spiritual abuse in the church um so as you did these stories and thought about this year you know how do we as Believers in the Pew respond wisely and biblically when we hear of these church leaders maybe failing to walk in a manner worthy of the Gospel you know I mean there's this exposure that happens but we're sitting in the Pew and we hear these stories and how are you seeing when the church at large respond to these stories how do we as individuals in the Pew respond to these stories you know Melissa I think about the the mass shootings which is another one of my top 10 uh article uh top 10 theology stories of this last year and I think we we recognize that we in some ways we we do have more mass shootings there's also more police brutality in some ways at least our perception of it but so much of these things is filtered through our now exposure to these things in new ways I don't think Melissa we would could really afford to be naive right now about how much these things have happened in the past how many women have suffered in small and large and ultimate ways from abuse how many children have been abused that this is not something that's unique to the Southern Baptist convention or to the Roman Catholic church or to the Boy Scouts or to whoever but a lot of it was simply not known uh it was not exposed there were not places for articles to be written and podcasts to be recorded and Twitter threads to have been published from from victims and and voices that had been uh overlooked and ignored and and shut out by Gatekeepers in the past we we know there have always been abusive pastors but there haven't necessarily been the means to be able to expose them uh the investigations to be able to look into them the um the the places where people could turn to say oh wow I didn't realize didn't realize what was happening or that I wasn't the only one it's been other people as well and so uh with our colleague Sarah zalstra she and I work a lot together on positive stories but this last year we looked on looked at women and young women especially in social media we're looking at young men now in video games and when it comes back to so often Melissa is we're just living out the consequences of the internet Revolution and the internet Revolution applied to abuse is that I don't or or um abuse or especially police brutality I don't know that we necessarily have more of it now in some ways we probably have less of it now but we have a much heightened awareness of what is happening and therefore a greater sensitivity in a in a positive way toward tolerating it um and so that's I mean that's going to be a big story a lot of the times Melissa year to year there's a common theme in my stories because the major things don't really change necessarily year to year so if you told me next year there's going to be another major abuse scandal in the news I would say yeah because we're living through a reckoning that is enabled in part by the multiplicity endless multiplicity of voices uh that the internet allows um to be able to speak out yeah so that's a lot of what I thought about about the abuse questions this last year because keep in mind the sun Maps convention there was no chance the leaders wanted to voluntarily um you know it disclosed the fact that they had covered up all these cases but it came two-fold a few years ago of course it came because the Houston Chronicle kind of old school traditional journalistic investigation been the only reason that it was demanded was because of essentially a social media or it was was required was a social media campaign that was largely Twitter based otherwise this report never would have been produced yeah yeah and it's I think it's interesting sometimes in life um it's it's almost like I forget to read certain parts of the Bible you know it's kind of like we're always surprised by suffering yeah but Jesus never promised a life free of suffering but somehow it gets in our head um a bit of a wrong Prosperity Gospel and I think we also get into a little bit of uh I I don't know if the right term is idolization of the church but Jesus you know Peter Paul they all warned that there were going to be fierce Wolves yeah it would come in and devour the plot I mean they were saying this in the first century warning the church to be on their guard and I think I think it can be really easy with church leaders to put our guards down because we rightly respect and admire and love them um and and that's why in some ways this may be more painful because we think this is supposed to be a safe place and it's just a good reminder I think to to be sober um not to be a really fearful but to be sober in in our assessment of any church setting um to just be aware of what could be going on there's a lot of talk Melissa about the church as a family and I love and I appreciate that and I think we see theologically and biblically the way that works out with brothers and sisters but what happens when you get hurt in the family yeah it's as bad as it gets and and when you combine that family with the very things of life and death of Eternity of heaven and hell um there's no there's no hurt um it goes quite so deep as Church hurt and so we're just we're it's not that it's new but what's new is that we know a lot more about it and hopefully uh through books like Mike Kruger's new bully pulpit a recent Award winner for the Gospel Coalition book awards uh that we'll be more Vigilant about not only forsaking those Temptations ourselves as church leaders but also holding one another and our leaders accountable yeah and I do think there's an encouragement in the fact that if Jesus knew this was going to be part of our story it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the church I mean it doesn't mean the church itself is a bad institution it means there are individuals who use the goodness of the church for evil ends but the Lord will expose them and I think that's what I feel encouraged by that he he's constantly refining his church and he loves the church and we can love the church unabashedly and unashamedly and still say hey we need to be aware as we're walking in the doors that that these things can happen um and I think I think the thing we saw in the world it's not just our churches you know that um we may be sometimes more surprised by our churches having issues but as we look around the world um I think we're involved in conflicts that we couldn't have imagined in 2021 if you had told me that um Russia was going to invade Ukraine I would have been like uh you're really pessimistic Colin yeah I'd be like what are you talking about would it be the first time you said it calling out the hard things but it's pretty shocking I spent a summer in in Kiev um in 94. it was three years after um Ukraine had become independent when I think about that like it's pretty shocking and I can remember we celebrated the Fourth of July there we had a big Fourth of July party it was kind of a cultural exchange um our Ukrainian roommates had this big party with us and one of my friends his his Ukrainian roommate woke up that morning and said congratulations on your country's Independence he said it so seriously and you know it really never struck me until this how new their independence was at that time and how much they treasured it as a people and now we're seeing these horrific effects of that being called into question this whole year as they've been attacked and you know just war is awful and we've seen that we also are seeing um China seeming to grow increasingly authoritarian um in in their regime's policies and behaviors towards Taiwan and just their coveted policy and then we see Iran and all that has erupted in the past few months um how do you look at these conflicts how do you see these things affecting the church at large and do you see any signs of gospel hope I mean because obviously we see the bad of these complex but have you heard any reports um coming out of the church moving forward the gospel advancing in the midst of these worldly conflicts that feel pretty awful to think about and read about in the news yeah you and I both um we grew up through the what was described as the end of History I don't know if you remember remember that era the end of History um and I think when people describe that's you know what people describe as the you know the Soviet Union is this uh hegemony of the West and to us it can be very confusing but to go back you had this whole era of seemingly never-ending conflict um between democracy and authoritarianism fascism communism all of this these ideological and and massive conflagrations that engulfed the entire world and killed hundreds of millions of people and then the fall of the Soviet Union which was utterly shocking I don't think we could possibly recall I mean he put ourselves in that position of how shocking that was well Melissa now you can Mark 2022 as the year that history began again um the end of History ended um you know what I find encouragement though in each of these different situations a little bit different what we know from history is that many times when a powerful leader appears to be at his zenith he's actually about to face his downfall and I know World War II is not a paradigm for everything uh Vladimir Putin has apparently decided to take some sort of incredibly Twisted interpretation of World War II as its justification for invading Ukraine but it was precisely an invasion of that part of Eastern Europe into Asia that led to Hitler's downfall in World War II and I think the most likely outcome of this ultimately is a weakened destabilized Russia even if they were to somehow still Prevail um he has been exposed and and that is and and not only that the reason this is a theological story it's because of the tremendous implications it's fascinating to me Melissa that we're talking about Christian nationalism in the United States against the backdrop of a state church that is Thoroughly corrupt in Russia by its proximity to political power um so that's Russia's situation uh to go over to China one of my one of my friends she and I started a Christian magazine together in college she and her husband their family or missionary is in Taiwan she wrote for us about that um you know I gotta I gotta be honest about this one listen I don't I haven't heard a lot of Hope coming out of China um the positive that I'm seeing is that China has just recently realized that they can't have their zero coveted policy forever but that means that huge waves of covet are about to be Unleashed in China its original home it's going to bring incredible suffering and related to and it's already brought economic Devastation and it's become a pretext for cracking down on the church and so um a Hannah Nation did an interview with me this this year on gospel bound she's done just amazing work bringing the voices out of the Chinese House Church in particular but I haven't heard a lot of great um positive news on the shutdown uh from covid and this broader consolidation of power under the current president has been unfortunate and extreme and the last one though in Iran we can come back again and I think perhaps see some hope uh Iran has been no stranger to Revolution over the years but we have not ever before seen in Iran with the fastest growing Evangelical movement in the world so it'll be fascinating to see Melissa how that Dynamic interplays with the broader kind of women's rights human rights Dimension which is historically speaking only because of Christianity it doesn't come from Islam uh so only because of Christianity and yet often does take on a kind of secular flavor so it'll be interesting to see between uh between a Theocratic Islamic State a growing underground Evangelical movement pressure on women's and human rights um I don't know I mean I would be not surprised at all if this ends up back in my top 10 list for 20 2023. yeah it's pretty sobering when you when you I mean you I think there was something about the Russian Ukrainian conflict that just made you realize again the more concerned you know all the time if we didn't learn that from covid I mean the whole world shut down and now here are these conflict erupt and um and and if I really don't know how people make it who don't believe in a god who's reigning over all things uh because we know he holds all these things and um that the end is secure even though we don't know what means we'll come about to bring forth um his good intentions in the long run when you just look at it it does seem to be a bit of a mess and it's not just the world on there I mean when we come yeah back to the States and back to America um we look around and I've noticed myself this is kind of one of those odd things I do not think of myself as an overly anxious or paranoid person but I was walking um where was I walking the other day I was walking through somewhere I don't know if it's the mall or something thinking how would I escape if a gunman came in in this situation and that is just a thought that I never had before you know I we just all go about our days but I remember just having a thought where's the exit door yeah and and this is a new day in America for us we're dealing with mass shootings it does seem to be at a greater level I don't know the statistics so I I could we're definitely more aware of it than ever before well we definitely I mean in in fact it's gotten so bad Melissa that many if not most of the mass shootings today we don't even hear about anymore um it's just like three people killed over here at a workplace five people killed over here at a public place some of them still penetrate our Consciousness because of the time of the year the location for example the Highland Park uh shooting because of the Fourth of July parade um but if you look at a list Melissa it is it's really discouraging and and sometimes you get perspective from your International friends who are legitimately afraid to visit the United States yes because of this and you you kind of laugh at them because in part you're thinking I mean this is a very large country um they're gonna be a lot of bad things happening in this country that don't affect you but Melissa it's the randomness and the frequency of it it's the fact that there's no predictable pattern a lot of violent crime in this country is concentrated in certain Geographic areas but that is not the case with the mass shootings and there doesn't appear to be a Rhyme or Reason we we would love for there to be some sort of thing we if we had someone to blame if we had somewhere to turn but that's what makes it so difficult Melissa we don't know there doesn't appear to be anything we we could say well we just don't cover them well yes it does appear that some of them want attention but a lot of the times these are just just a very lost lost people but even um I don't I don't want to draw undue attention to this but one of the shooters had spent time recently regularly in a church that I know um and then killed a bunch of people right near that church I mean I think you've done a good job already just in this conversation Melissa whenever we talk about these things bringing them back to spiritual realities and I think that's what we need because ultimately the spiritual reality is that whatever we want to think this is a dark world that is it is captive in so many ways to Satan and to sin but that the consistent testimony of scripture and of God's work throughout history is that the light shines in the darkness and God is doing something that you don't even expect and like you said the last time I don't know how you do this without I just think about my kids in school like what hope do I have except that I can trust God no matter what happens because Melissa I can't guarantee they're gonna be safe yeah now of course we know that's not true of any time but but that's sort of the the terrorism of mass shootings is that it could be anyone anywhere at any time yes yes and it's the interesting fact of the internet too because it's not we know about things in ways that maybe we wouldn't have known about them these probably would have made it to the surface but I even think of I mean we just heard the little story the story of the little girl with the FedEx delivery and she was taking you know these things as parents you know they raise us to feel like what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen and there the reality is you know like just like you said we can't stop going to the stores so that we won't ever engage a shooter we can't stop going to parades we we live and we trust the Lord and we walk in faith um on these things but I do think it's interesting that this this arises alongside um a suicide rate between the teens that's nearly the highest um I think it's ever been teenage suicide is the second leading cause of death right now for teens there's this Rising hopelessness and some of the books I've been researching this is the most unchurched generation in American history right um and we're seeing on this you know it's it's these masteries a lot of them are done by people in that teenage early 20 you know age group like a lot of what we're seeing and so there seems to be a pervasive hopelessness so let me ask you this question how do you think culture is trying to answer that question we have an answer in the church yeah I mean I look at it I'm like um people are lost and they they need Jesus how do you see culture trying to answer the question why are so many people hopeless and lost like there's the Band-Aid approach which says hey let's work on gun control we've had a debate about that at TGC that's a good debate to have yeah but it it's assessing how do we keep the gun out of someone's hands I also want to discuss how do we prevent someone from wanting to take a gun and kill people you know like how do we address that issue both need to be addressed for sure um but how do we address how do you think culture is trying to address that question of why are our teens so desperately hopeless right now well you you mentioned that or we discussed earlier that there's no Rhyme or Reason to these shootings but I guess that's not entirely accurate it's always men and they're almost always Young so that's not a coincidence this is not this is not a bunch of 80 year old grandmothers out there doing this so there must be something to that whatever that is it is gendered and it is age segmented um and so I think Melissa the way the sort of non-christians are trying to approach it is through um there's a group in in my in my hometown here where they're trying to help we we have a lot of problems with drug abuse alcohol abuse suicide um in an affluent successful setting and there's a lot of discussion about Mental Health a lot of discussion of how to how to identify and to help other people a lot of warnings about abuse a lot of discussions about wise practices with social media so I would say for Christians probably a lot of that stuff is perfectly helpful but I don't think it it it's it remains at a level that is above the underlying spiritual uh realities it seems to be on a naturalistic plane yeah and I will say that I at least would appreciate at least appreciate people and communities that are trying to address it at that level as opposed to most of what I see which is simply I just blame the people that I already hate about everything else um the political approach that you described earlier so um that part seems to go absolutely nowhere it doesn't even seem to be about the problem but just exploiting the problem to try to score political points so I think we do need more attention to uh to mental health But ultimately I just I don't see a an ultimate solution unless we're recognizing I guess I wonder how much more evidence do we need of the pervasiveness of sin and evil and Satan because I don't know that there's any explanation except demonic activity from an enemy who seeks to devour and destroy us and um in a fallen world I I don't think we need to I don't think we need to manufacture more complicated Solutions than that and this this would sense our ancestors probably were wiser yeah it's interesting some of the research I've been doing um showed one study and this came out of the Harvard Chan School of Public Health and it actually showed that children and adolescents who um regularly attended religious Services were 18 more happy on it on a general basis that was the term term they used they were 29 more likely to volunteer in their communities and 33 percent less likely to use illicit drugs and I find things like that you know that the world is discovering that goes in alignment with the scriptures it's it's wonderful when you actually see the research being done because it gives me encouragement as a Christian parent like one of the one of the great things I can do for my child's mental health is simply to take them to church every week I mean it doesn't mean that Christians aren't depressed of course they are but it's just when you're looking at the things to do I mean you can also say exercise is great for mental health you know there are lots of things that are really positive for helping our children and Society but it's really um interesting when even studies are showing involvement in the church is really good good for teens so for any parent who's Tina struggling to go to church and doesn't want to go we can say no actually this is really good for you in a lot more ways than just me telling you yeah if you're if your teen has descended into a dark and insular world that seems to revolve entirely around the internet keep fighting for them um keep fighting for them because if nothing else that in-person socialization seems to make a big difference and especially if it's in a community of ultimate purpose of ultimate hope of of transformation of spiritual power of love from other people who care for them um where else is a teen supposed to get that or a young man where else is a young man supposed to find that and I think it's one reason why young men have always been drawn towards some bad things and bad movements Because unless they're called to higher spiritual Pursuits and pouring up themselves for others they tend to direct their energies toward fighting other people um so that yeah absolutely the church has a has a vital role to play yeah yeah and in this um world we're also seeing one of your other stories was something I think that's probably particularly difficult for parents I mean in one sense you bring up kind of the political problems that we're experiencing with transgender ideology especially with female sports we've seen that kind of where is this going and how far can it go question is definitely coming up but then at the same time you report on two historically Christian universities who are have abandoned the biblical historical biblical sexual ethics so um we're seeing that some of the worldly ideologies that are kind of exploding rapidly I mean you know I don't think 20 years ago we could have imagined having a conversation where gender assignment surgery is a normal a normative discussion um and and here here yeah here we are um but it's really happening a lot for parents as they have to navigate Waters in our public schools that are teaching you know hey you get to decide your gender pronoun are you of a or them or he or she all these different I can't even keep track of all the options it's kind of overwhelming um and so how would you encourage Christian parents because we we want to be involved in the world around us and the culture around us how do we navigate these debates because it's not just debates out there I mean they're very personal to most of us especially as we see our children being impacted by them and yeah you've got kids going into school I'm I'm on the other side um where uh yeah my kids are kind of walking into college but that's very different than walking into kindergarten right now like the changes between my first child going to kindergarten and your first child going to kindergarten are pretty shocking um and so how as how as parents Christian parents do we navigate these discussions when they they really do affect our daily life with our kids by far the most helpful thing I have read on this topic was published by The Gospel Coalition this year called transformation of a transgender teen it was an article written by Sarah zostra you go ahead and find that and what the what the pastor Sam Ferguson in Washington DC what he had reflected on in that article is the need for parents to to love their children in truth that compromising on truth for the sake of love only makes the entire situation more difficult the longer it goes now as our children get over obviously we don't we don't control them even when they're under our own household like we don't control them that's not our job as parents is to control them in that sense we can influence we can exercise authority over them and that is significant But ultimately we don't control their minds we don't control their Wills um and that's part of what makes parenting so frustrating there but we can uphold truth we can refuse to compromise with truth as the world tells us that we must conform to them for the sake of love and I think what we're seeing Melissa between these um Christian colleges universities that are moving away uh from that historic Biblical teaching is the Confluence of the dominant expressive individualistic perspective which is I have my truth and everybody else's job is to affirm me but in the trans issue in particular it's running up against what Jonathan height has the social psychologist Jonathan Hyde at New York university has dubbed moral foundations Theory and I think this is perfectly consistent for what our understanding as Christians he's not a Christian but I think it's perfectly consistent for us and he recognizes that there are all these different touch points of care and harm and authority and uh you know religiosity or just um sanctity and what you see with the Trans issue is different from homosexuality so homosexuality more or less for most people unfortunately outside the church even sometimes inside the church they see it as a simple matter of freedom freedom and autonomy and what's more valuable in American culture than freedom and autonomy the thing about the trans issue though is that it runs into a lot of other questions because first of all there's a question of harm the dominant moral ethic is just Do no harm well is it harmful to do gender reassignment surgery and puberty blockers on a preteen or a young teen um there are plenty of people on the other side of it who've experienced this who do see it as harm so there's a physical harm involved in this or at least an irreversible physical transformation that brain that that is very much in dispute and in fact we're seeing a lot of changes especially in the UK backing off a lot of those treatments so there's that one there's also the authority question for parents can a school and teachers and counselors at a school actually guide my child toward these physical Transformations that can never be reversed without my knowledge or against my opposition as a parent I think that's one of the Transformations that you're talking about Melissa in school has happened there so there's that one and then there's another one the third one Melissa that is fairness is it fair for a man who now says that he is a woman to compete against other women now some that can look one way the way that it did with NCAA swimming this last year thankfully swimming's not a sport where the men and women would have to physically engage with one another you know you're competing side to side with each other but you do so there is that but there's still the broader question of how is this Fair but then now you're also seeing um the harm principle in the UK because these men who are identifying as women are being placed in shelters with battered women and of course what's happening you're seeing those men who are identifying as women abuse women there and these are supposed to be women specific shelters designed to protect them from the harm of men so this situation is more complicated than what we've seen before and I actually Melissa have some hope that as as these different moral foundations are being covered that we're going to see some sensibility return to this conversation to recognize that merely affirming everyone's individual desire to do or be whatever they want actually has social implications for all of us it's never a private decision so I have hope that that situation might actually reverse yeah the further you get away from actual truth like you you begin to lose all meaning of anything yeah if I can call night day and day night because that's my personal preference how do we even have a conversation at some level you just start losing the ability you know you realize we have to have foundations for truth and um thankfully the Bible gives us these and it's a good thing but I remember the first time I walked in with my child maybe it was around 13 or 14 and my child had to give me permission to be in the doctor's office you know and this is I was like and she was she was confused she was like what do you mean I have to give my mom permission to come into the she didn't walk around the doctor's office without me but yeah so we're societally we're setting up some things um that are pretty just uncomfortable even to our kids yeah I mean they could she couldn't imagine why she wouldn't mind be in the doctor's office with me but we all can we know where where this is coming from and it really leads us to our last question I want to talk about from the top 10 theology stories of the year and um because most of them were extremely heavy I mean to be quite honest they showed the need of the Gospel um for the light to conquer the darkness but one I did feel like there was a ray of light and that was the Dobbs decision that came out this year can you tell us a little bit about the story the importance of this ruling and maybe some of the impact we're already seeing yeah simply but it's a reversal of Roe v Wade I mean this is this is 50 years of of one of the most unjust inexplicable decisions and consequential decisions Supreme Court history being overturned um and so some of the some of the results we've already seen I've seen reports anywhere from about seven to nine percent reduction in abortions primarily because of these states that had abortion bans already on the books from pre-row uh or especially those that had enacted them on the event of Rose being overturned or that enacted them quickly anywhere from near total bans to heartbeat bills to um you know certain restrictions on the timing of the abortion so it seems that it's a good thing when an unjust decision has been overturned number one number two it's a good thing that we're seeing a reduction in abortions I do have to issue a caveat and that is that the um the the forces of evil are not dormant and uh what you're seeing now has been underway for a little while but a massive effort to strategically build abortion clinics in states of near proximity to states that do not allow abortion especially we're seeing a lot of that from Illinois and related to that is the broader challenge of many states have responded to the Dobbs decision by radically liberalizing their abortion laws we're saying no restrictions State financing all the way until that baby's head is out of the womb at 40 weeks um that is evil it's horrifying it's scary and it's just a once again a reminder keep praying keep fighting keep advocating for these women who in many cases feel scared trapped um and then and and also ultimately for those children I think Melissa one of the things that scares me the most um I'm kind of putting you on the spot here is that um I don't know if I could say most but much of what I've read on this topic lately has focused on the number that the the demographic of women getting abortions is women who already have children that's what scares me I think the most now again I understand at a human level what's going on they feel I can't handle another child I can't afford it I don't have the time I don't have the child care um but Melissa this just guts me and first of all I mean I you don't ever seem to see a man involved like a man there a father I mean doesn't appear to almost ever be a father so I don't want to overlook that part right there but it just guts me to know that these are these women they have children yeah I've been pregnant they've delivered babies they've seen it the the ultrasounds and still they go for an abortion yeah yeah it's actually where I think the reality of something does affect our understanding of what we're doing yes yes you know and I I am very happy or yeah because we've had this whole campaign I think of changing hearts and Minds about abortion and I'm kind of like the law actually matters yeah it does we say something's illegal it does not let us off the hook it says our culture doesn't think this is okay and I think for a lot of women I think their hearts are telling them it's not okay I think they're inner yeah they're and I think our country has told them it's okay you need to do what's best for you and and please hear we we know these are awful situations women find themselves in at times because they are alone they are um they have no idea what to do and our culture has said rather than say we will support you and we will help you we have said yeah just let's get rid of this problem so what we have is a culture of death not just individuals choosing it and I think that's you know a huge problem I think this decision does at least allow us to say we want to move toward a culture of life um this year will be 50 years right um the anniversary I mean you know and it's wonderful to be able to say at least Reggie Wade has been overturned there'll be different conferences going on you know we'll we know of stand for Life some friends of ours are putting this conference on I'll be there um it'll be in January it'll be right with the March for Life and so I I think what you're saying is a really good point though there's still so much work to be done this is not the end it's a good beginning of promoting life in our culture and and this gets into euthanasia I mean this gets into all all parts of life this gets into care for the poor I mean that we care about life but it does start with life so we have to as a culture say now we value the youngest member of life it's it's hugely important and I'm thankful it's it's something it's again just as much as I did not see Russia invading Ukraine this year I did not see rovany Wade being overturned so yeah not before that leak yeah yeah which we still don't have any answers yeah about but um it is pretty amazing that I didn't even list that one number one in fact it wasn't even in my top four yeah because of the magnitude of the international historic events in Iran in China and especially um in Ukraine yeah yeah quite a year well that's the top ten I want to ask you a few questions just some other questions about things going on um gospel bound you have had a lot of interviews this year um 33 total um and so I want to ask when you look back on this year what were some of the interviews that really stood out to you um or and are there any upcoming that you can tell us about but any from this past year that you really um say wow that was a fun interview to do yeah I I want to say a word to the listeners here um you get to you get to listen in on some vulnerable real moments even these conversation with us right here one of the reason I love listening to podcasts I I build a connection with um with with the people that I'm listening to so it's a friendship in a lot of ways what it feels like and I know that's Melissa how so many people have felt about let's talk um that is a real friendship that you guys share and it's also one that that people feel like they're your friends as well and so I think about the way that so many of my interviews from this last year they don't just exist in some sort of world of content but their real life I did an interview with Bill and will kinds two very good friends of mine and a book that I've been looking forward to for a long time about job bill is a pastor who recently retired and he writes about the homiletics the preaching of job and then will is a scholar here one of my colleagues at Samford University in Alabama and is an expert I did his PhD at Cambridge on job and so um so that interview was really special but what was amazing afterward Melissa is that you remember the the horrible tale of the young mother who was abducted and killed in Memphis um we know a lot of people who know that family a lot of mutual friends um well turned out that one of the listeners a gospel bound had shared that with the with the husband and he listened to that interview and actually set up a conversation with Bill and will to talk with them it was spiritually about what he was going through after his um his wife and the mother of their children had been abducted and killed and so that was um that was that was real that was a moment um another one uh the best um or the best article I read all year was from a an NBA basketball writer named Jonathan charts and um and it was called as my son know you and it was about his 1 in 20 million cancer diagnosis as a 35 year old father a 34 year old father of a son who was born in 2020. and um Jonathan did that interview with me and then I asked him for a health update afterward and he said I I just found out Colin that it's done I'm going to die um there's nothing left for them to do and sure enough within within months he was dead um so Jonathan that was I don't know how many other interviews if any Jonathan had done but that was um one of the last interviews he did was with me talking about that amazing article and really Melissa about the both of these are about the power of the church the power of the Gospel on display in the church because Jonathan came to Faith as an adult and he was now just never lost his Joy over the gospel never lost his Marvel at this thing called the church and so he wrote this amazing article about his own loss of his own father and how it meant so much to him when somebody would from his father's life would come to him and uh and would just kind of fill that role and remind him of his father's love and you know things like that anyway and that was Jonathan's challenge to the church was does my son know you will you be the father to my son that I can't be wow and he fully expected that the church and this and his small group especially in his church would rise to that occasion and I think then Melissa about our friend Anna Harris um uh she lost her husband with three young kids and um and as she and I talked a lot about this Dynamic of these other men in their lives in their church trying to fill that role well she had recommended to me a book it was at tgcw22 I remember exactly where we were she said Colin you must get the book everything sad is untrue by Daniel nahari and I said okay I've heard I mean if Anna tells me and I've you know I'm gonna read it and it was one of the best books I can remember reading an amazing story and interviewing Daniel one of the one of my uh publishing geek highlights of my career was asking Daniel if he had Rewritten this book Harper Lee style if he had if he had recognized that he needed to write the book as a child and sure enough that is exactly what he'd done he'd written the book before as an adult it made no sense he went back he wrote it as a child and it just became a classic um Melissa and a lot of people don't know Daniel was 20 years at Redeemer Presbyterian church with Tim Keller and the title of course comes from the conclusion of the Return of the King Sam seeing Gandalf who he thought was dead and uh people will see this Melissa in my book on Tim Keller that was the scene that Tim Keller went to on September 14th uh yeah September after September 11 2001. and and I asked Daniel I said Daniel when did you get to New York and he said right before September 11th he was there for that sermon wow um so the uh over the year I mean that's so that the whole story that whole book that whole perspective okay was all connected um to the work of that amazing church and and just the power of the Gospel to be able to work miracles in the midst of bad situations so so I'm looking forward in in um in 2023 so you guys are hearing this first we're going to do a special abbreviated season of gospel bound I'm going to be doing a series of interviews I've already recorded most of them uh with people who are related to the Timothy Keller book so we're going to be talking about various influences on Tim M so we have Chris Watkin talking about biblical critical theory uh so and essentially high high theory in general um which Tim has been advocating for so much and is a big part of his life we also have Rick Lintz talking about theological Vision bill Edgar talking about apologetics John Piper talking about the shared numbered one and number two influences both him and that he and Tim Bull's [ __ ] that they will share Jonathan Edwards and C.S Lewis I will also have James Eglinton and perhaps another surprise or two in there so it's uh this is It's a labor of love uh this podcast because the Lord does some just some amazing things um you know through the interviews and in the interviews and it's a privilege to be a part of and and I'm so sad that we're not going to have anymore let's talk um wrapped up at tgcw22 this last year and I know that you were surprised when a little birdie informed you that one of your that your most popular episode ever was from this season on when friends fall away yeah uh what do you think Melissa why did that episode resonate so much with the with the large audience of let's talk yeah I know there's a side of me I need to get back and listen to it yeah we record all those sometimes like what do we talk about we honestly have real conversations and so um just like you don't remember sometimes all you discuss but when I think about the topic and even when I texted Jackie and Jasmine to tell them hey I just want y'all know this was one of our most popular episodes the most popular the most popular yeah it was the most popular and the sadness of why it's the most popular is because so many of us are dealing with people we love who have walked away from the faith um and I think we're all trying to figure out what do we do what does it mean when someone who we have loved dearly walks away from the faith you know it's unsettling um it's incredibly unsettling because in some sense it causing a question what we believe um it's like we're staying and they're going and we're wondering why why and so I I hope it was um helpful and comforting in some sense one that we all experience it and again this is one of those things in scripture that's there you know when Jesus tells the parable of the sower he talks about some spring up for a moment but because of the cares of the world you know they fall away I mean he he talks about these hard realities that are spiritual things that there are leaders who fall away and that there are people who who seem like they're initially receiving the gospel but then they fall away um and and for me I I think the book of Hebrews does such a beautiful job of seeing that and it keeps calling us to faithfulness don't be like that yeah that uh that I'm that I'm hopeful that we hear these stories and we say dear Jesus save me keep saying you know save me from such a day um you know to quote Twila Paris goodness I am old um yeah I remember a song she had it was yeah it was you've got to know I'd rather lose my my life than my faith basically was the summation that she she wanted she so deeply desired a life of faithfulness um that you know and it's even helpful to realize yeah these thoughts these things have been happening a long time I think like everything else we've discussed they're more highlighted as more public figures have a more public platform to speak their deconversion or they're walking away from the faith and so it feels like it's everywhere um but I I think the the reality is we see a lot of people walking firmly with the Lord coming to the Lord and joyful the Lord and so that's that's hopeful as well but yeah that was that was the line that I think um had the biggest impact definitely this year but we had a great time having a few years and a few seasons of getting to chat around the table some of my favorite conversations um to have so they were actually in town this the past few days and there were a couple times I looked at him I was like that would have been a great let's talk conversation but then we were all like oh so nice to talk without being recorded to have the freedom to be like do I want that story told to everyone in the world um maybe we'll get the uh let's talk bonus edition exactly um well we have also just had it's that time of year oh yeah where all the book Awards come out um which Ivan on our team does such an amazing job I mean we start what in August maybe June July yeah six months essentially yeah so Ivan Mesa uh editorial hero yeah and we put together four judges for every category um outside judges and the the lead judge takes on a lot of books to narrow down to four as we as we do these things I've noticed Melissa you demoted yourself to a judge in my category instead of being the lead lead judge yes it was so nice to only do you have four books this year rather than 40 25. yeah we sort through um but as you think back to this year in just different books is there a book you've read that really impacted you yeah I can't wait for people to hear the interview with uh Chris Watkin on biblical critical theory um it is simply one of the best books I have ever read it is 700 Pages um for those of you Colin your books need to come with a warning label we discussed before as you got me to read question yeah it's fiction book Colin tells me to read that comes and could basically be a doorstop for any any door in your house but aren't you so grateful because what an amazing book yeah it's a warning take a book recommendation for calling make sure when you go to Amazon check the page count that's true it's true Melissa has suffered that fate um you know we we did a review of this at the Gospel Coalition and for those of you who might be want to catch the reference we wrote Christopher Watkin against the pagans um against the pagans is the subtitle of city of God by Augustine and while no one could ever dare compare anything outside of scripture to Augustine city of God um there will be much more to come from me in the New Year along the lines of mobilizing a generation of church leaders to be able to undertake that task that Augustine provided in his late Roman Empire age of bringing the gospel to bear on a rapidly transforming world with percept perceptive Insight that is that is underneath where most people are looking uh deeper Insight of of the dramatic kind of assumptions of our time and of our age and that is definitely what Chris Watkin does that is a labor of decades you don't just wake up someday and decide you want to write a book along those lines but the beautiful thing about the about a book is that that but you and I can just grab a copy sit down and work through it and benefit from all of that amazing research so that is a that is the book that stood out this year it was a winner in our category um of public Theology and deservedly so and I think it'll be one that um folks will be talking about for a for a very long time all right Melissa what about you yeah it's interesting the way you just described that I feel like I've been doing my head has been a lot of books I'm doing research for a book on parenting teenagers and so I have been reading a lot of really um almost secular voices with a lot of common Grace Insight on teenagers and just different ones I mean there's been the teenage brain which is from a neuroscientist she was the mother of two young boys and under her understanding of the brain greatly helped her understanding of teenagers and she shares that I generation which really talks about the effects of the iPhone and social media all teenagers the price of privilege which I read years ago probably one of the best books on raising teens that I've read and another book rain I mean there's a list of them but these books have really been on my mind a lot you know the collective weight of thinking through what's happening societally with the iPhone with our teenagers and how that's impacting our teens but it's impacting our parenting um you know we see it everywhere we go you go to a restaurant and you see everybody on their fence and not engage you with each other and you know I was talking with some people about it it's not like um cell phones in and of themselves are the problem but they're there's but they're they're allowing certain societal things to change pretty rapidly and we're seeing the impacts of them so it's been pretty fascinating you talked you've talked Melissa about how you're grateful that when your kids were little you didn't have a phone I'm so grateful you just were not we're not tempted to that and that's certainly a constant Temptation for me especially given the nature of our work yes um but then also um I mean just a Temptation for anybody today and I just came across this probably while I was on my phone around my kids a reference a reference to the number one regret that teenagers have is that their their parents don't appear to be listening to them in part because their parents are just locked in on their phone and paired with that how frustrated they are by the things their parents say on social media interesting I thought wow so there are less challenges you don't think they're listening than they are yeah oh man yeah yeah no I think um I think it's one of those Temptations I'm I think about my own life the reason I started gardening in my front yard was because I was outside and didn't want my kids you know to get hit by a car so I had to be outside and I got bored because I didn't have anything to do like now I would I know myself I would be on my cell phone this is great I can watch them while I'm reading but it actually that's when I started gardening and I think about what a joy that is for my brain to have a break and that we need a break from thinking and and just to be outside and maybe not be doing these things and I look at teenagers they really are reflections of what's going on in the home and so if we don't want them on their friends all the time we probably need to monitor our usage and it's just it's just a it's just a huge issue and difficult to navigate in these Waters I I do think one day cell phones might come with a warning label like cigarettes yeah I think we're living through a time where we just don't even know maybe what we're seeing but the the reports coming out are pretty dramatic on the effects on check out uh check out the check out Sarah's alistair's recorded podcast this year scrolling alone yeah and uh one that um if it's not already out now by the time you listen to this we'll be soon uh her new podcast and recorded called gaming alone about the young about young about young men and Sarah's research basically got her off all social media uh yeah it's true and then she of course also did her book social sanity and it is to age yeah this year for the Gospel Coalition as well so a lot of good resources to check out yes there but yeah she she's gone completely and now you you're not gonna find her there and you know and I I read a chapter on discernment in Social sanity it's like most things yeah we have to figure out what love love and we be engaged in in that's healthy for our lives and I think there's a yeah none of us are saying hey go off completely like because we want you to read things on the internet since that's where we write them um and we hope you'll listen to this podcast um so we're you know I think there's a balance and we're trying to all figure that out as the Avenues have changed um for for the ways that we the ways that we get news um one other exciting thing we have coming up this year is tgc23 it's a big deal a conference in town it's the first time we've done it in the fall um so that's that's a change normally we would be scrambling because it would be in April it feels like so refreshing that it's far away in September um can you tell us a little bit about the theme and what's going on and what you're excited about with that conference what's a lot of what we've been talking about here it's a theme is Hope um hope in a time when it feels like we're wandering in a kind of wilderness um and so we're going to be just exploring these beautiful Old Testament stories these Exodus stories of of God's people being delivered despite themselves uh so we've got um got a great lineup of main speakers we've got um it's got a mix of kind of newer and older voices people like John Piper David Platt we have JD Greer for the first time ever at a TGC event Lincoln Duncan will be back yep JD will be there and then also um one of my favorites Andrew Wilson coming in from London uh Andrew will be there not only to to give one of our plenary talks and he's written extremely well in the past not only on Exodus but on biblical theology in general and uh so very excited about what they'll bring to the table but Andrew will also be featuring doing a talk on his new book 1776 which is an absolute treat no doubt will be one of my favorite books of of next year do you know when it comes out I'm putting out I think that's in the fall I think it's time for our conference in the fall so um Andrew has given us a preview of that this last year at one of our Council meetings at Museum of the Bible in Washington DC but um absolutely just um Andrew's one of the sharpest just check out his end of the year reading list in case you doubt me but they'll also be what we're going to be changing this year is we're going to do micro events most of our workshops are going to be sponsored one two up to four hour events from our partners and so we have 19 different Publishers schools and Ministries that have partnered together to bring in just the best content we think of any conference out there their best teachers their best writers uh zondervin will be graciously sponsoring both me and Chris Watkin I'll be talking about my Tim Keller book uh Chris will be talking about biblical critical theory um you guys are getting a preview of this because you'll be listening to this Lord willing in 2022 before we even have announced this whole uh a concept for 20 for 23 which it'll it'll be out there depending on when you're listening to this before after but it'll be in in mid-January when we announce all that so yeah this has been this has been a massive effort throughout 2022 to pull off and um let's just give a little yay God out there to our good friend and colleague Ann westry uh for her work exciting to me it's pretty exciting beautiful reflection of everything we all hope TGC will be yeah we have multiple seminaries from all over the country different denominations different Publishers and it really is what we all really believe in is to to have a gathering of people you know who love Jesus and yet have different perspectives on things so I think yeah unified unified in the gospel but not uniform in exactly how we express that that is what TGC has always been it has always been a network of networks and at a time when it feels like there is so Frac so much fracturing we think that this event is going to be an incredibly encouraging reminder of God's unifying work of the Gospel so that's a major highlight can we just say by the way so when you say well TGC thinks this can we just correct that a little bit because did you see things is it that easy Melissa can we just declare it here in this podcast maybe they'll listen if they I'll clear this up once and for all this is a formal statement from the gospel coalition's vice president of content and editor-in-chief um I'll say if the Gospel Coalition says it in our foundation documents in our confessional statement in our theological vision for Ministry that is the Gospel Coalition um beyond that we have a wide variety of voices um speaking to a wide variety of issues doing our best to try to encourage the church and equip the church um in in many different ways but uh yes the only times we speak as an organization are in those Foundation documents yeah so yes thanks for clarifying that Melissa the rest of the time making everyone angry and upset in some way except for you our wonderful listeners in this podcast transition to talking about how they can support us Melissa it's a perfect place because this is what we do we want to bring family together we we I actually love it break the family together but it's just like Thanksgiving it's just it's it's kind of it's kind of a crazy it's kind of a crazy family we got a lot of crazy uncles and I actually believe more people believe in this than than sometimes we we get to hear um because I do think I talk to a lot of women who are like and a lot of men who love the good faith debates who Love Actually hearing that you know Unity without uniformity that exact concept and that is what we we hope to just in a lot of ways celebrate that the gospel is good we need it and we are individuals walking together trying to obey Jesus in all the all the ways and so um that's our hope and we're here really trying to serve the church and provide resources that churches can't always do um and so as you think it's a plant but support not supplant but support the church exactly exactly exactly because you know we've all seen um every Church can't review all the books that come out and that's why we have great Ivan I'm from the great I don't think you'd like me calling him well it's better than Ivan the Terrible so yeah that's true that's true but you know and um it's exciting to get to see um what I think we have an Insider view on what TGC is doing worldwide too we just had a we just had an all staff Call and I left so encouraged um by what's going on not just in America but really um all around the world it's it's hard to believe um how some of these articles can get in places that sometimes people can't get with the gospel um and I find it so encouraging when you look back and when you think about TGC um what encourages you about the work we're doing well you know a lot of the a lot of what people seem to notice would be some of the controversial articles maybe because they like them maybe because they hate them most of what we do is things like our full Bible commentary perhaps even by the end of this year if not early next year we will have a complete online free Bible commentary written by the best experts on those books of the Bible around the world so you can go back to the archives of Nancy Guthrie has helped me teach the Bible podcast you're preparing to teach a Bible study you're doing it in a small group let alone preaching a sermon preaching a series teaching through a book of the Bible now you've got you've got these interviews from Nancy there you can pair it with these theological commentaries now shout out to Phil Thompson out there for his amazing work on them and then combine them then with our dozens and dozens and dozens of theological essays now we've also produced out there on a wide variety of topics this year I remember I had a question about the fatherhood of God Google Google you know and boom where do I end up top result The Gospel Coalition theological essay on the fatherhood of God and um so that's that's a lot of what we actually do to serve church leaders and by church leaders we mean you're you're in a BSF study out there or you're just you're leading a small group from your church or you're you're trying to think of what you're homeschooling your kids or you're just trying to do family discipleship with your kids or yeah you're a professor or you're a pastor or you're an elder in your church all of you are a church leader because you are responsible for caring for other people teaching them to obey everything that Jesus has commanded so that's what we're trying to do is support you in that and I'm especially excited this year about the work that we have on the commentaries and the essays uh what about you Melissa something that stands out you're excited about yeah actually I mean I have to say a lot of what I'm excited about is what you just talked about because I was that woman leading Bible study in a living room for 12 years and you know you're not you don't have a book budget when you are that woman needing a little bible study yeah and commentaries are expensive and so the fact that they are free on TGC that you can come get them and get all these resources right there it's pretty amazing to me yeah I tell people over and over like this is all here it's it's all free use it you know it's it's hard to um the people the individuals who wrote them the fact that they're all allowed to be on our site it's just pretty remarkable I think read well read through the read through the gospel of Matthew and then you read through a commentary and then all of a sudden oh there's an embedded 360 degree image of the Mount of Olives yeah that you can see right there that's part of what the internet allows you to do that you can't do in a book yeah um it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing not only that but of course it goes places that the book can't go that's right anyway yes it's all here and it's free to you the end user yeah that's right and so it's it's just all yeah and and I think also the worldwide things that are happening I'm really I really am excited about the Russian and Ukraine websites that have gone up this year um what a what a joy to think the words being written um in many different places are going all over the world because in fact we're also translating things from our other tgcs to come on the American site so we're you know we get to learn from Christians and other cultures and and hear from different perspectives all over the world um even in the states and so it's not just it's not just articles from the states going out um I think maybe people don't know that we're also receiving articles in that get translated for us from churches all around the world and I think that's a beautiful thing it's kind of amazing what we get do you have any you have any room left in any of your women's cohorts for 23 Melissa you guys already sold all those out oh we're full we're full completely full all right tune back in 2024 how to teach the Bible so okay well those are there is a there is a fee that comes with those but again what you get from those is absolutely tremendous um I think about my my we we changed churches this year my wife is now in women's ministry and the thought of her being able to participate in something like a like a women's cohort on how to teach the Bible that is uh money well spent whether it's from my church um leaders or or from us as a family simply to invest in her her developing abilities as a teacher of God's word so well look at this point if you are still listening to us then you are definitely the kind of person who wants to support TGC financially um everything that we're talking about here the fact that we're able to just have this conversation is thanks to you thanks to your generous support in obedience to God's God's call of generosity to support us in this work so that we can support you and so we can support other church leaders we can go out there and we can find the best material the best resources we can direct you to the best books whatever to be able to help you to grow in your walk with the Lord so a few different ways some calls to action of how you can support us you can become a monthly Giver to TGC just go to tgc.org give got a special benefit to everybody here listening to this episode of gospel bound with special guest Melissa Kruger of let's talk you sign up for 25 dollars per month or more and we will send you copies of my book gospel bound written with Sarah zalstra and also Melissa's book growing together so 25 a month sign up to do that we'll send you copies of both of those books gratefully second you can also give a one-time gift we would love that we could use that support and there's another way you can support us you don't have to give us any money to do this one just subscribe you can still do this with let's talk because that material is going to be useful to people around the world for years to come you can support our podcast subscribe to them leave a late rating and a review all this helps more people to who are searching for Hope in this Wilderness of this Fallen World to find gospel-centered resources like the interviews we do at gospel Bond and the conversations at let's talk so a few different ways that folks can support us and and hey look you drop us a line about an interview that you enjoyed or a conversation you enjoyed it's a great encouragement also you know at gospel about I love to get recommendations so be the kind of person who gives me those great book recommendations so I can do great interviews with with the authors yeah yeah that's great and we thank you we really do yeah thank you it is a joy to get to do what we do um and we're thankful to get to do it um so one thing we always do and let's talk is we share a favorite things so my question for you since it's Christmas um do you all have a favorite family tradition you enjoy oh man well you know this year this year it was simply the kids like when we said we didn't we didn't know if we were going to decorate the tree that night they just started crying which I'm kind of noticing they just do all the time if they don't get what they want now it's working they've trained you but it's working well you know we do this tickle fight thing where I run around the house and I tickle my kids and and I and I told them you know I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do it and then they just started crying so we but it didn't seem to be manipulative or at least it was very effective um if it was but uh so bottom line it's just we we have the music we go pick out the tree which was very expensive this year and we uh and we decorated and but that's one of those things as a father where I don't care how much it costs because of what it means to the kids and now they've got all the little ornaments that they've made yes in school with their pictures on them and they love to see them and they love to bring them out and they love them so I guess what I'm saying Melissa is I like as they're getting older they have a sense of traditions yeah yeah which is really cool it really is so and what's cute is how they become six years old again even when they're 22 when you start decorating the tree like the excitement's still there and you get to see and remember it's really it's really the best thing yeah that's great well what about a book favorite book yeah you're trying to laugh that my favorite book of the year was Hannah Coulter I can't believe I hadn't read it had you not read it yet put it off yeah because everybody tells you books are good sometimes you're like because everybody's telling me it's good I'm not gonna really like it I loved it I mean I was Weeping at the end that's a mom book right there I mean that's for anybody but that is a mom book it was and it just was you know the themes of aging and watching life go by and this is beautiful it was beautiful so I really enjoyed it really enjoyed it well you got I mean I I got to give a shout out I didn't get to mention this earlier but um I can't recall Melissa have you read Hillary man tells Thomas Cromwell series no oh all right there's your assignment then for 2023 you got to read it uh we lost Hillary mentel this year sadly she died um but the my gosh one of the most amazing reads of my life the mirror and the light the conclusion of the Thomas Cromwell Series this is historical fiction so you know we're not we're not exactly you're not exactly surprised by what happens so volume one volume one was like I already know the ending why should I be here uh well see yeah so and the first book um very long but the first book ends with the execution of Thomas Moore and then the second book ends with these much shorter execution of animal Lynn and the third and so the execution of Thomas Cromwell you well I mean I I am not alone sometimes my my book recommendations will be a little bit off the wall but when your first two books should have been a series I'm an inner Russian but not of one of the invading types I'm thinking of a literary Russian yeah the literary Russians not the not the not to get sentenced that to Siberia yeah they got sent to Siberia not to the front um but yeah so that I mean it is the first two books both won the booker prize in fiction like the top award in fiction so I think I'm on pretty good ground here and the third one I will say as a character exploration it is definitely on or surpassed the level of of Christian labrin's daughter that we mentioned earlier cigarette inset some classic three volume uh uh series but uh Thomas Cromwell for you'll appreciate this Melissa I think I have never identified with a literary historical character the way I have with Thomas Cromwell which now for any of you who have actually read the series has given you very serious doubts about me but uh it is um I do think that's the central theme of the series is it's so real precisely because he is a complex character you cannot tell exactly what what what does he believe I mean I think at his core he is deeply convicted he's a deeply convicted Protestant Evangelical Christian but he lives at in a hyper political he works in a hyper political time and situation that no one could successfully navigate just witness all the wives of Henry VII and so he plays a significant role in that but I've just um I mean I think it's more it's less about me it's more about credit to Hillary mantel for making this historical figure come alive in the most remarkable of ways it's probably also because I'm getting ready to spend five weeks in Europe this summer literally living in for four weeks in Cambridge in the same house you lived in I am like I need to go back and read Envy of Eve because I'm be struggling with severe Covetous Tendencies that's true you wrote that book on Envy while you were in that house actually that's true I didn't even put that together but no you're staying and he'll be at Tyndall house and gets to stay at Hawthorne house which is the most lovely British home in Cambridge and get to walk the cam and go to places that are just delightful to to go I'm I'm so excited for y'all I'm so excited so a lot to look forward to in 2023 a lot to be thankful for as I look back in 2022 thank you for listening to gospel bound thank you for years of support of let's talk thank you for encouraging us in our comments we've received many of them in person at our conferences speaking around the country your comments that you leave on the podcast and just share with us um through the website again we'd love for you to help other people to find those podcasts through railing and reviewing them we welcome you to become a monthly donor of TGC 25 or more we'll send you those books tgc.org give and we'll just conclude with a Merry Christmas a happy New Year wherever you're listening uh to this podcast we look forward to joining you again next year and uh while you're washing the dishes or commuting or working out or wherever you enjoy your podcast thank you very much