Top Theology Stories of 2025 (with Melissa Kruger) [Gospelbound - Ep. 173] | Word First

I saw I think it was a New Yorker column that said, "I'm so glad to be done working with screens all day so that I can rest by sitting in front of screens all night." We are getting better and better and better at finding new ways to not need each other. >> Mhm. >> We always have to consider when using that technology, what is it? We know what it's adding. What is it taking away? at the same time. Welcome to a special edition of Gospel Bound. I'm Colin Hansen, your host, and I'm joined by my good friend and colleague Melissa Krueger. Uh surely you know her from the Deep Dish podcast from TGC's national events, our women's conference, our national conference which she runs um and leads a team to be able to pull off. Now you are listening to something we always look forward to every year. Um our bonus season end year end episode. Something we began doing in 2020 which is always auspicious. Anything that happened in 2020, you just want to keep repeating it over and over again. Well, there was a lot going on 2020. We had to >> There's actually a lot not going on in 2020, which is why we started, right? >> That was the irony of 2020. There was too much and not enough all at the same time. Uh well, what we do in this episode, we take you behind the scenes. We look at the big stories and trends of this last year, 2025. And thank you for listening, watching, and all the different ways that you encourage us in this work. >> Well, um, thanks for having me, Colin. This is always one of my favorite episodes because honestly it's like we get to record a little bit of our real life conversations which is always me asking you what is going on um in in the evangelical world a lot of the time and I thought um this year I was really intrigued by how you started your top 10 list. You said um this was a year of commas not periods. What did you mean by that? Well, doing this going back all the way to 2007, you start to see some bigger trends emerge and you also are able to size up different years. Mentioned 2020 that was one of the most consequential news years of of modern memory. Uh last year had a lot of really major news. It's presidential election year in part. Um this year there were there always going to be top 10 stories. There's always going to be news. But it was not quite as newsworthy as as other years. But what's interesting at the same time, Melissa, is that the top stories, some of them might be more consequential than things that have happened in other years. But that's the point. It's a comma. It's and now what's going to happen next? Um, so many things I kept looking at thinking, well, this isn't decided at all. This is an event that happened, a debate that was convened. this is a you know this is positive or this is encouraging or this is a major transition but we just are too early to be able to understand what the implications of that are. So that's what I meant by it being uh the year of the or the comma and uh and not not the period. >> One thing I always enjoy is that you are really good about looking at the worldwide church. It's not just theological stories that are happening in our own backyard. Um, and one thing that you one one story you highlighted was the largest crackdown on urban church houses in China in 40 years. Um, and honestly I was unaware of this so I was reading your your story. Um, what has been happening and why do you think this type of persecution is increasing in China right now? Like what's going on to to um kind of fuel this persecution? >> This story might instead of being a comma, it might be an ellipses. It's really a continuation of what's been going on going all the way back to 2017, 2018. U back in those days, we heard a lot about the growth of the church in China, fastest growing or one of the fastest growing churches in the world. We heard about these really massive mega churches, including church building constructions. Well, a lot of the the persecution coming and you you also used to hear a lot, Melissa, about how well politics and policies and persecution in China are very local. That's what you used to hear all the time. Um, to a certain extent, of course, that's still true, but to a lesser extent, and you've had a couple things happen. First, it predated COVID. It predated 2019 and 2020. There was already a major national level crackdown on church buildings and then also on some of the leading house church networks. Saw that with Early Reign Covenant Church, Wong Yi a number of years ago. Uh but Zion Church, it really stands out, Melissa, because of the audaciousness and the the planning of this because this is a crackdown that was that was executed at a number of different major cities around the world. So that's part of around China. That's one of the challenges or one of the changes that happened with the with the shutdown via CO. You have more churches that are going local. They're networking. They're meeting of course online just like anybody else is. They're having to work around some different uh restrictions there. Um so you you see a church that the Holy Spirit is not squaltched. The Holy Spirit is not daunted by what happens with the premier in the Chinese Communist Party. And so the church is is having to pivot. They're having to adjust. But what we're seeing is after a pretty extended period of of very encouraging openness, this is a continuation of of the lack thereof. And we can clearly see, Melissa, this is a part of a broader trend between um a more confrontational China with the West or different entities including Christianity that they regard to be connected to the West. Yeah. And I I was so glad you started with this because it's such a good reminder. I mean, even right now if you're listening to take a moment to pray for our brothers and sisters across the world who are facing persecution. I think we take that for granted um a lot of times. But just to meet in church is an act of defiance in in a lot of ways for them. And so um it's a good reminder as we start off to um just remember our brothers and sisters around the world. >> And a political act. It's always a political act as well. >> Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um the another thing that you mentioned was the death of two highly influential pastors, John MacArthur and Vodie Bacham. Um as well as Bible teacher K. Arthur um and focus on the family founder James Dobson. So these were kind of huge uh influencers before the word influencer was a word um on Christian culture, evangelical culture. um what commonalities do you see in their legacies and what do you foresee as their continuing um influence on the church today? I mean the these men and women wrote numerous books. Um I mean their their works have been all around the world. I mean they they've had tremendous influence on evangelical culture. So do you see that continuing? What has their legacy been? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I think one of the transition points here and this actually points back to something in presidential politics. We still have never had a president in the United States of America who was f who became famous after after the internet. I mean Barack Obama is about as close as you get to that. That's still early internet when he becomes wellknown 2004 then 2006 especially and into 2008. Um but when you think about people like Joe Biden, you think about Hillary Clinton, you think about Donald Trump. Of course, all these people are well known before the internet. Well, part of what you're seeing is the fragmentation of the culture because of the internet. Well, one thing about John MacArthur, KA Arthur, and James Dobson is that their influence was nearly ubiquitous. Um, I I was not I didn't grow up in a super high information evangelical household, but still those would have been people that I would have encountered on the radio or a KA Arthur studies would have showed up um you know in in different settings. uh people in my family would have had James Dobson books about parenting, things like that. Um that era of that level that level of influence that comes primarily from publishing books connected to people listening to talk radio that really has passed. So somebody can be tremendously influential now but not reach a wide spectrum of evangelicalism. They can still sell a lot of books. They can still be really popular. They can still exert tremendous influence but not not in the same way. Now Vodie Balkam was a little bit different because his primary uh I mean similar to Dobson became wellknown because of his writing on parenting. Um but dissimilarly he's deca he was decades younger than these others when he died. His prominence was primarily tied to YouTube. And so kind of a transitional figure there in Gen X from this older older generation primarily books and then internet then into the way YouTube would come to be dominant and and still and is right now and presumably will be for for quite a bit of time. Melissa, you're the one who wrote the article for us about KA Arthur. I would love to hear specifically about the influence that she had and this is a a list of top theology stories. What difference did KA Arthur make in terms of women especially, but churches and their and how they approach the Bible and how they put it together theologically? >> Yeah, I'm I'm just putting together something from what you just said. You know, I've thought about this a lot when it comes to kind of like a common story we have culturally, even with our entertainment, you know. Um, growing up, everyone on Thursday night watched the Cosby Show and Family Ties and we all talked about it at school and you had to wait. I've thought about it a lot in terms of entertainment that my kids grew up with a completely different story than a lot of kids maybe at different schools would have grown up because we could, you know, really watch what they were seeing on TV and we could pick that in different ways that wasn't available. I hadn't thought about it in how it's shaping u modern evangelical thought and you really can kind of like Netflix your pics and just listen to certain people and I whereas what I even wrote about in the story about KA Arthur I found KA Arthur I went to Sign of the Fish bookstore in Raleigh North Carolina that's what it was called it wasn't a big lifeway store it was just a little Christian bookstore um back in the day and her works were there and and and I can say without a doubt she's the woman who taught me how to study the Bible. Um just line by line, precept by precept and it made a huge impact on my life. I I I was learning as I was doing and I didn't even realize what I was learning. um the basic hermeneutical principles that she's teaching as you go along just doing your homework day by day um changed my life and what I wasn't aware of I knew it changed my life but through that article I realized oh wow just what you were saying her influence was all over the world so many women came up to me and said in my real life and online life yeah no she changed my life too I never learned to study the Bible until I did a KA Arthur study and so um I think what we see is in some of these older authors, um, their influence was deep and wide. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it's just really different now because now it's kind of like popularity is the driving force in publishing, which is a little different. It used to be you had to have substance to get published. Um, and then Yeah. Yeah. So, we're seeing some changes in that. It's kind of interesting to see where that's going to go. That's a that is definitely a comma. It was it was it was different before as well. So there was a certain period when there was still more of a monoculture than total fragmentation. You still had more of a mass culture, but you also had mass literacy. You also had um mass groups of people that were listening to the same radio stations and things like that. So before that, you still would have had you would not have had those dynamics as well. So this is an example where it's not like there's just declenion over time, but there are these ups and downs of okay, now it's easier for anybody to have access to an audience, but harder than it's been since before that era of mass media to be able to reach the same audience for for everyone. So you really think about that period from Billy Graham who's a good bit old who was a good bit older than this group from Billy Graham that television radio era all the way through to really about about the internet in 2000 again mentioning that that's you know we just we haven't had any of those mass figures and so now the only kind of mass culture we have is the NFL and presidential politics >> um and in the church yeah that very significant theological implications if instead of all of us learning from either the same local leader and our context is local or the same national leaders because we're reading the same books from the same bookstores and listen to the same radio stations now it's definitely choose your own adventure so you can have the same congregation but and especially in a non-denominational era people can have chosen very different paths I just had a friend come up to me asking about a media group and he said, "What do you think of this group?" And he had every reason to assume that I knew what he was talking about given the work that we do professionally and I did not. I said >> he stumped you, Colin. >> Yeah. I said I said, "It sounds great. I just can't quite place that." >> Colin, that might be the first sign of that you're aging. You're getting a little out of touch. I'm so excited about it. If it had been a 20-year-old who was talking about a YouTube channel or Tik Tok, that would have been one thing. I would have said, "Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about there." But yeah, I just it was it was pretty embarrassing. >> Now, you know how I feel like all of the time, Colin? Like that's what most of us walk around feeling like every day when we go on Twitter. I'm like, >> but it can show you that for better or worse, this this member of my church, this wonderful wonderful guy is is being very edified by this podcast, this YouTube channel has made a huge difference in his life. And I I don't know if anybody in our church of thousands of people also uses it. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah, it's it is a is a best and both best and worst. You can see the positives, you can see the negatives, but no doubt it's a major theology story. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was just this weekend really encouraged. A friend had sent me this podcast. It was some Australian podcasters. And I now that you're saying this, I realized I would have never listened. I would have never known who these people were. I mean, without the medium that we have today of being able to listen to a Christian around the world who could actually encourage me as I'm wrapping Christmas gifts in my house, you know, this weekend. And so it's it's amazing and yet it's also a call to root ourselves in God's word all the more. I just have to say this because um >> it it there there's a right correction that can happen by having many voices, but there's also the reality that we can be led astray by many voices. I mean there's a lot of bad theology out there with a lot of good theology out there. And so it's it's a good reminder to us all. Um we have to first be in God's word and really monitor what we're listening to. Not that we can't listen critically to people we disagree with. We should do that. But we have to just be aware that not everyone out there who claims to be upholding the truth is actually doing so. And so >> we the tears >> is the wheat and wheat and tears era media for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of that, um, not only have there been changes in our evangelical leadership, there have been two massive changes, um, between the Archbishop of Canterbury and a new pope. Um, so what are you seeing in these changes? Any thoughts on these two new leaders that we see emerging? >> So maybe there Melissa and ellipses and then a comma. So the ellipses there. I don't know how much has really changed in the Anglican communion with this regard. Um there was definitely and we wrote about this three or four different times at TGC. There was a definite assertiveness from especially African and majority world leadership within their different Anglican dascese saying that's it. I mean we we do not with this new archbishop of Canterbury. We do not recognize any primacy of Canterbury. Now, that had already been the place that had really been the case because of the changes that had come with with not disciplining gay bishops in different areas and still recognizing them. Then blessing same-sex unions, then moving toward that in the Church of England in recent years. And then the new Archbishop of Canterbury, she also supports those same-sex unions. So, there was some talk about how maybe this is because she's a woman. I don't think that was really a decisive factor, though it is a noteworthy factor that you've not had a woman before in that position. Most people probably just know the Archbishop of Canterbury because of thinking of coronations and royal weddings. Um, and that function of course is still is still significant and important, but not really when it comes to theological direction for the rest of the Anglican Communion. This definitely fits Melissa within the list that I'm currently compiling in my head of the top 10 theology stories of the 21st century so far, these last 25 years. Because the shift of Christian leadership, continuing shift away from Europe and North America toward Africa is most clearly indicated in what's happening with the Anglican communion. And probably a lot of people watching and listening to us have picked up in the last couple decades that there are vastly more Anglicans worshiping in Africa um alone, let alone I mean then compared to North America and England. So in that sense it's it's a continuation but the assertiveness coming out of of GFCON that's the majority world conservative leadership um coordinated leadership of the Anglican Communion which which also includes North American conservatives that was again more assertive this time but really a continuation. The comma comes with the new pope. you get a new pope except for the the last situation which was not quite unprecedented but not not precedented very often of a resignation of a pope but in that ca but in this case we had the death of pope Francis who was a confusing figure I think we can say there's endless debates there the current pope the most significant fact is simply that he's an American But that doesn't we don't really know what that means at this point. Um we don't know does it significant of a switch more you know toward an Austinian away from a Jesuit. Well historically that's been really significant. So that could that could play a could play a role. Um but we haven't seen major political fights. We haven't seen major shifts. We haven't seen major roll backs or accelerations yet. um he hasn't been there for for that long. And also the the part of the new pope being American is a little bit confusing because let's go back to the mass culture again. We don't have a mass religious culture especially when it comes to the Catholic Church. So of course we have to be able to translate the significance of the pope into the terms that we understand which is sports. So all the talk is about, wait, he was at the World Series. We found him in the stands when the Chicago White Socks, you know, won the World Series and people are giving him shoutouts and jerseys and he's responding. I don't know that any of that is theologically important except to remind us that even popes are humans as well with human >> or maybe our biggest religion in this country might be sports. But >> I think that's safe to say. the fact that we probably used to have to translate uh sports into religion to be able to understand it. Things like the Hail Mary pass. Maybe perhaps we're having to translate religion now into sports to be able to understand any of it to be able to say nothing about what does it mean that he grew up in Chicago? What is what's his agenda? But wait, Cubs or socks? Which side did he choose? >> These are the important theological things we need him to weigh in on. It sounds like Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. Um but being Catholic from the Southside pretty clearly and then you know a legitimate Socks fan there. So we don't know we this is the change with a pope is almost always significant especially coming off a longer tenure like Francis had. But uh yeah we just we don't know. Remains to be seen um on the new first first American pope in history. and consequential in and of itself, first female Archbishop of Canterbury, first American United States, you know, first from the United States Pope. That's a pretty big deal. >> What's interesting with that shift in the Archbishop of Canterbury on a positive note, um the Bible Society found um substantial increases in church attendance in England and Wales, particularly men between the ages of 18 and 24. And you know, you and I have talked about this in past years that church attendance is actually one of the um maybe biggest u or most significant data points when it comes to faith impacting the life particularly of men. It seems you know making changes in their life. Um so I find this number really encouraging that more 18 to 24 year old men are going to church. Um, but this seems really surprising because the trajectory typically is once you slide down this kind of slope of liberal theology, lack of church, it church attendance, it doesn't seem like we go back. And so, is this a comma? Is this, you know, I don't know, an exclamation point? I don't know. What What is What are you seeing with this or what are your thoughts on this? And I'm encouraged from what I'm seeing in I mean we've talked about this offline a lot um in the college campus world things going on even in our own country um but I found this really surprising coming from England and Wales. >> Yeah. Well, one of the things we've been looking at for years would be London specifically as the world's first post secular city. So at the Keller Center here at TGC, we talk often about postchristryendom and of course what follows Christrysendom but secularism but then what follows secularism. So London is one of the most interesting examples because it's actually bottom the church attendance in London bottomed out a long time ago. It bottomed out around 1980. Um, and what changed it was primarily immigration and especially immigration from Africa connected back to the previous story as as you said. So London for a whole bunch of different reasons is regarded as the first post secular city yet still this information was very surprising. But we're looking at it at this trend a number of different ways. We have this survey from the Bible society. We have anecdotal evidence that's coming from church leaders all over the country and you don't always have that. Um it's it's fairly difficult for church leaders to just manufacture or fake that there's a lot of interest especially something like church attendance. Um that's not really common to be able to do. Now, it's still could still be anecdotal and overall things could still be down in different ways, but we then we have this this survey and you also have these highprofile conversions that we've talked about in past years which includes some really significant figures in the UK. You also have a a national mood shift in some ways. Um, that would be evidenced from from things like Tom Holland's podcast, The Rest is History, just named the number one, you know, podcast of the year by Apple. Um, well, I mean, Tom is one of the most significant figures in cultural apologetics and also is now one of the most significant figures in podcasting and probably the most popular history teacher alive today. Um, all of that is really significant. So there are some people who have pushed back and said whether in the UK or more broadly in the United States, no, no, no. There's no actual evidence of this when you look at the numbers. But I'm trying to just point out it's not coming from nowhere. This is not just a few people who are trying to hype something. You mentioned the Bible society here. the reports all over the place have been uh Bible sales increasing certainly United States but also also in the UK at least if I'm remembering remembering correctly there so there's something happening but the comma strikes again because if we did this survey again would it show oh maybe we were just just kind of hoping and it was an outlier but if it you continue to run the same survey with the right methodology and it reports something back and people are continuing to cite the same statistic and people saying the same anecdotes then I think we are seeing more of a reversal but simply to point out we really have been shifting away from secularism especially in the London area for a while um even as the country remains very low observance overall of religion. Yeah, I was really struck um as I was thinking about this and thinking about Louise Perry who came out this year as a Christian. Um we've talked about her work before um in the case against the sexual revolution. She wrote a great book and she was not a Christian when she wrote that. She was just a secular sociologist I guess is what she was. She was just studying trends and I was fascinated by her research because she came to the conclusion monogamy is definitely the best for women. And then really it's the best for men too because in some ways it makes men settle down. There are less wars. It's better for culture in general. All these things. And what I was fascinated about is kind of how she talked about it. Um and she came around to well if all of these things that the Christian religion keeps saying are true keep being shown to be true, maybe it is true. And one one one beauty of the secular um experiment running its course is it's false. And so at some point you will know >> that going for us >> by their fruits. I mean you know and and what's true is what's true. And so sometimes I keep thinking you know if you dig in to truth it just gets truer and more beautiful. And when you study scripture, you start saying, "Wow, this is more true than I even knew it to be true the first time I read it." Like going deeper actually helps you believe more. Whereas, you know, I think the the reality about what's false is it it will show itself. Um, and so I find that imminently hopeful across the generations. We're always going to find ourselves in different points on that timeline and what people are believing and what people are buying. But um the good news is true is true and it will show forth eventually. >> How many how many times Melissa as a parent have you had to simply allow your children to be able to explore the alternatives. I mean you you want to be able to tell them don't do that. And sometimes, especially when they're younger, you can tell them not to do that and you can prevent them from doing that. The older they get, the harder that gets. You move into that advise and consent role um as a parent. But sometimes it is exploring the alternatives that helps you to realize what the truth was. And that truth might be my parents are not idiots and they love me. Well, that could be what we're seeing. um the experiment with secularism does not seem to as you just pointed out be bearing wonderful fruit for people. So the primary shift appears to be into what Terra Isabella Burton and others have written about as remixed religion kind of a conglomeration. and I'll grab from this and grab from that and it often includes forms of Christianity but as you said it is also leading toward actual Christianity from which church attendance would be one of the if not the strongest uh indicators of that. So yeah part of what we're seeing is the truth is experienced by exploring the other options. >> Yeah. Although, you know, you said that about your kids and I'm realizing I let my son go to school in shorts on 32°ree days and I'm not sure he learned any lessons. >> I I'm thinking he's still doing that, but I'll just keep trying. >> Send shorts to school is a problem no one will ever be able to solve. >> Yeah. It's like they have internal combustion engines within them keeping them warm somehow. and hormones. >> It makes you think you're maybe wrong about everything else in life, but we'll we'll continue. We'll continue. Um, okay. A light topic. Penal substitutionary atonement. Okay. What is it? Why is it a hot topic this year? Um, and I mean, I called you about this. I was like, what are the other options, Colin? What are people talking about? That's the only option scripture puts forth. So I was but but to tell us a little bit more about why this discussion is hot right now in our culture. >> Let's just let's just talk about what penal substitutionary atonement is. Um you have a basic idea of substitution and I think Christians widely agree on this across across communions across denominations. Christ died in our place. We deserve the death that he died for us for our sins. Okay, so far so good. Now you do get into a little bit more dispute when you talk about the penal element of it and that is the basically the terminology here is propitiation. You see this in places like Romans 3, you see this in John, you see this in Hebrews and then you especially see it going back to the atoning sacrifice in Leviticus. The idea there is that um a penalty has to be paid. Um, I mean there is there's a law and what you see in Romans 3:21-26 is this amazing juxiposition that somehow we have been set free. We've been justified. We have been that well let's go back to the atoning sacrifice there. There are two animals. One animal is sent away. Um, that is the expeation. Our sin is cast out. But another animal is sacrificed is killed. He pays the price. Okay. So that then seems pretty clearly the term in in Greek is hilisterion. That seems to be pretty clear evidence from Leviticus through to Romans in Hebrews in John that Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. He pays the penalty for our sin. Um, now you get into all sorts of confusion about, okay, wait, who does he paying the penalty to? How do the father and son relate? That's where a lot of the the the disagreements will come in there. Well, where this came into view this year specifically was a very 21st century 2025 kind of story. Uh John Mark Comr is one of the most significant uh Christian writers today. One of the most popular. Um a lot of good things in spiritual formation and disciplehip happening through his work. Um Gen Z especially are really big John Mark Comr fans in general. And I think you often see generationally when one when one generation older generation uh which in this case would be Gen X and the millennials have rediscovered the a priority on good robust biblical doctrine. The next generation seems to follow and say, "Yeah, but I want to feel it. Yeah, but I want to really experience it." Not that the previous generation didn't, but sometimes there just more of an emphasis there. And then I want to live it. I want it to really make a difference in my life, especially in this secular life with smartphones and everything we've been talking about in here, these high anxiety levels and everything. So, Comr's really struck a nerve there. Well, he just happens on an Instagram story to say, I just read this book about Leviticus and it's the final nail in the coffin of penal substitutionary atonement. Well, it's like somebody just hit the emergency button at the Gospel Coalition like, "Okay, here we go. It's game time. Uh because we do think this is a really important thing. Um I mean I learned all this stuff from our president and co-founder Don Carson. Um drilled me over and over and over again on Romans 3 21-26. I had to do word studies on Hillisterian. Let's say Leon Morris in Australia and all this sort of stuff. uh Tim Keller, this is pretty much, you know, the the climax of Tim Keller's preaching was always, you know, the penalty that Christ paid, his substitution, and this is very common in reformed circles. So, for somebody to say, "All right, all the debates have been settled by this new book." Um, well, of course, you're going to get a lot of responses and a lot of reviews at TGC and elsewhere about that book. I think it's safe to say it did not put the final nail in the coffin of penal substitutionary atonement. But as you mentioned and asked about Melissa, it does raise the question of what are the alternatives. And the person who explained this most effectively uh to me was was JI Packer. Uh uh Dr. Packer and I used to work together at Christianity Today. We'd have a lot of lot of meetings and talks together over meals and things like that. Not to mention just reading his books and I remember even the exact restaurant, the exact booth where I talked to him as a young editor about about this question and he said, you know, of course the other functions or purposes or models people might say about the atonement are also valid that Christ I mean or just of the what did Christ accomplish for us? Well, he set an example for us. Okay, that goes back to Peter Labalard and others. There's biblical examples of this and this is where John Mark Comr focuses on what Christ how he sets an example that we are intended to follow. Then you can look at things like Christus Victor Gustaval and others. He's triumphed over the principalities and powers the evil spirits also important. That's in the Bible too. But people often want to pit them against penal substitution as alternatives or um or or as you know as alternatives or that are better or more important or just making penal substitution invalid. But the way Packer talked about it was this is really the the pinnacle. Every other function of the atonement makes sense when you have the penal substitutionary element locked in place. What did Christ accomplish on the cross? What did he do? What happened? What difference? Why did he have to die? >> That's a question that especially not answered very well by the exemplary theory of the atonement. Well, setting now the example could be well he just you know sacrifices himself by you know not not being you know not taking up arms and things like that. That's what why pacifists are often drawn to that approach. Um, but once you have that in place and it's just theologically it connects the covenants, connects old and new testament, connects the different writers of scripture together, it answers all these questions. Why did he have to die? Why did he die in this place? What was happening in the temple? You know, why did the temple curtain be torn into? I mean, why is he the the lamb of God who was slain? Why is he introduced by his cousin John as the lamb of God? Well, I mean, all these questions only make sense or it can only be answered through penal substitution. That's why it's a big deal. Um, but it's not to dismiss any other dimensions to it. But yes, that I I think Melissa, we could probably rotate over the years between biblical inherency, justification by faith alone, penal substitutionary atonement. We'll be doing this years, you know, years in the future and we'll be probably having the same conversations because they tend to come back around and this was the year with atonement. >> Yeah. And and and maybe I mean because I do think what you're seeing is true. What I see in some college students right now is a high value of practice of faith. Um but you're right, they're not having the same doctrinal conversations I was having in college. Like I remember late night conversations on the sovereignty of God, are we all robots and you know all these things that I'm not sure they're having quite as much but they are talking a lot about the practice of faith and that we you know we think both like what Paul said to Timothy watch your life and doctrine closely both are close and we're always correcting. So in some ways these debates coming up I think can be really good things to make people think because in my head what keeps coming to mind is without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins like so how do you answer that question and and so hopefully it will drive young people back to the Bible and make them say hold on how what what is this about and that's the goal of these conversations right to get us >> back back into God's word >> well let me ask you a question about the the challenges of reading the Bible primarily for what should I do about this? What do you do with Leviticus? >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> I mean, you you've got to read it covenantally. You you need to understand what has been accomplished and how the covenants fit together, how they develop over time and then ultimately how they lead to and point toward the finished work of Christ, not what we do in imitation of him or in thankfulness or in obedience to him, but what he has done for us that we can never do for ourselves. >> And it's a declaration at some point. I because I was reading Leviticus one time in my Bible in the year and I was preparing for a talk in John and so I'm in Leviticus and man everything makes you unclean and I'm feeling exhausted by it. You're unclean. You're unclean. I'm like I got it already. And then I'm reading John and Jesus says the words you're already clean because the word I've spoken to you. Yeah. It's this declaration to his disciples. And you're sitting there thinking, "Oh, wow. Now this takes on a whole new, you know, light bulb moment because I've been rooted in Leviticus and I've been sitting here hearing how many ways I can be unclean and now Jesus can declare you clean." Yeah. Well, how's he going to be able to do that? Oh, because he's going to pay the penalty and be able to make us clean. You know, all the things that that are later going to be shown in the >> go power for us to obey. >> Exactly. united with Christ, sealed by the spirit in grateful obedience for what he's done for us, that's how you obey him. >> Yeah. And it's the root of humility, right? I mean, if all the exemplar is like, well, I could say to you, Colin, I'm a better example of following Jesus than you, right? You whereas whereas with this, it's no, it's just a gift. And so, you really do get into the most humbling aspect of this is you can't do it for yourself. It's a gift of faith, not by works, so no one can boast. Um and so it's that's why it's good news. But anyway, it's >> as we the these discussions have real have real impact in our lives, I think, as we live them. Um okay, another thing that is sneaking into our lives on a daily basis is this thing called AI. Um which you know has some really good points. I told you, you know, um my mom was sick recently and uh we were in the hospital a lot and my brother was putting all of the doctor's notes daily through chat GPT saying what questions should we ask? So there we we we acknowledge there are good things about AI. Um tell us a little bit about the influence on how it's how it's affecting the church spirituality. Why is this a theological story and not just a news story? And this is one, Melissa, that when we look back on this probably will be the most significant thing that happened this year and might be one of the most significant things that happened at all in the last 25 years or even longer ago. It does seem like this was the year when generative AI really came to the forefront in popular usage. Um, it ma made it also became more difficult to avoid. If you were trying to avoid it, well, good luck with that on Google. Now, this is this is how I mean most people are accessing information through that search platform and it's transforming the way people are therefore accessing theological information including places like the Gospel Coalition's website. So, one way that it's simply theologically significant is in things like, well, can we trust, can we rely on AI to give us good biblical, orthodox, historical answers to theological questions. That's why Mike Graham for TGC and the Keller Center this year did the AI Christian benchmark and we found uh not so good. Now, people are learning prompting with AI that the more information you give AI, the better answers it gives you back. So, you could say, I subscribe to the Gospel Coalition's uh foundation documents. Tell me, what is the significance of penal substitutionary atonement? You'll actually get a pretty good answer from that. But if you said something like, and just imagine a 16-year-old out there who hasn't grown up in the church, and you say something like, "Why did Jesus have to die?" >> Mhm. >> Well, not very reliable answers. In part, what we're seeing is alignment from especially Americanbased AI to be able to say, "Hey, that's not something we get into." And keep in mind, AI does this on lots of different things. Human programmers, ethicists need to be able to say, "Okay, if I type in how to build a bomb to destroy my, you know, local school. AI is not supposed to give you an answer to be able to do that." Okay, that's alignment. We don't want it to do that. Um, we don't want it to give you advice on the best way to commit suicide. These are real things that have happened. We don't want that. That's alignment. Well, that alignment then comes to questions of how do we answer these questions? Because of course, different denominations might disagree. Certain different religions might disagree about these things. So, how do you align it? Well, what a lot of the different groups, especially in the United States, places like Meta, Facebook and and X, which includes, you know, formerly Twitter, their Gro system, um they'll just sort of plead the fifth. they'll just sort of say, "Ah, you know, that's that's not really my terrain in there." What this the theological consequences there are related to epistemology. In the Enlightenment, we've had this problem all along of the fact value distinction. That religion belongs to values. There are things that you feel but not facts. Things that are objectively true. that's created this idea that religion is something that happens inside your heart, but it's not something that has public consequence. It's not something in the realm of history. Well, the major concern we have is what if AI pushes religion further into that category? It's a value. Who can know these things really because people disagree about them? That's what we're trying to avoid. The other question though, Melissa, and I wonder where you where you see this playing out, is the theological question of anthropology. Why do we exist? Um, I saw I saw somebody comment recently that the computers have gotten really good at programming the humans. >> We talk about this all the time. We're the ones who are programming. But really, the more use we do of computer, more use we see, the bigger role that computers play in our lives, are they are we making them more human or are they making us more like computers? >> Yeah, >> that's a big question. What is distinctive about us as humans that we are not inferior um operating systems? Mhm. Well, and information, when I think about this, information used to always come through the conduit of relationship. You learned through a teacher. You learned from a pastor. You you you learned even a recipe from your mother, you know? I mean like you you were passing down things from generation to generation and now that that's being broken in a lot of ways because it's a lot faster to go to chat GPT or whatever you're using that's probably archaic by now probably old you know way people still use it still going >> it is just interesting you know you used to have to call a friend who was a doctor and say hey what questions should I be asking so look I mean there's some efficiencies here that are helpful um in the moment, but I do think we have to we have to slow down and say what's being lost. We always look at what's being gained. Um and it it is really different to learn your theology from someone who you can watch their life rather than just somebody you're typing something into. Even even well um nuanced, you know, if you said, "Oh, I'd like the reformed perspective on this topic." you're going to get a pretty good answer, but maybe it would be better over coffee with an older gentleman in your church who's walked a lot of life and might be able to push into things you don't even know you need pushing in on because we believe the spirit's alive and working in these conversations and where two or more are gathered that the spirit's with them, you know, and so I I I think there are things being lost maybe in our ease to get information because I I think we society maybe sometimes think too much what we need is knowledge. knowledge whereas we've lost the pursuit of wisdom perhaps. I don't know. Yeah. I mean it's it's a question. AI can give knowledge but I'm not sure it can give wisdom. >> Yeah. Or or at least wisdom is embodied certainly in Christ himself but also in his body and then through the spirit. It's not that the spirit can't work through AI to give you some of that direction, but we understand what categories we ought to be searching for that wisdom. I saw, I think it was a New Yorker column that said, "I'm so glad to be done working with screens all day so that I can rest by sitting in front of screens all night." >> So true. >> Yeah, it's very it's very true. We are getting better and better and better at finding new ways to not need each other. >> Mhm. >> And to a certain extent, that is just the way technology functions. It's the way the world has functioned. We're always looking for efficiencies. That goes all the way back to the wheel. Goes I mean there are lots of examples here. And so it would be foolish to say that we shouldn't continue to look for those things. But you really hit the wisdom or you brought the wisdom there, Melissa, to say we always have to consider when using that technology. What is it? We know what is adding. What is it taking away at the same time? And if you're you're in a situation thinking, I could call my mother to be able to ask for her help on this, or I could just punch it into chat GPT. Um, I mean, we'll just make a very practical example. My dad is probably the handiest person you will ever meet, and I am his son somehow. I I can he is very helpful in talking me through things. He's also very helpful when he shows up and he does them himself or guides me through them. And that's a primary way that I have a relationship with him and that I appreciate him and that I experience him as a father who the things that I'm good at he's not that good at and vice versa. It's the way we have that relationship. However, between YouTube and chat GPT, I mean, probably have a lot more efficient ways of finding these things out myself. So, you kind of got to go out of your way to do that. But that goes back to the anthropology question. Are we designed to not need other people? >> Yeah. >> I mean, that seems to be an illusion because at some point we all do, whether we want to or not. So that actually seems to be leading us in some ways potentially away from truth and wisdom to say yeah my life is about creating efficiencies so I can and then the then the question becomes so I can what? >> Mhm. >> So I can spend more time watching screens. Hey Melissa, what if we increase the efficiency of AI just making all the stuff that we put on our screens too? So it's perfect. AI will do our work so we'll have more time so we can watch AI movies and listen to AI music. >> Exactly. >> Somebody this doesn't make sense, right? >> Yeah. >> What's the point of living? Why are we here? >> That's why anthropology questions. Well, and this is where at times I mean th this is where if technology is neutral, if we'll give it that, it can be used for great ill in entertaining us so that we never have to think about the big questions of life or it can be used, you know, to help me like today as I was driving, I was listening Jackie Hill Perry was reading to me for Timothy from the Crossway app, you know. So, there are some really good uses of these these technologies. I think the reality is, and here's what I always want to say, because true is true, which is what we said before, the good news of what the Bible tells us to do. If we just continually walk in its statutes, it means we're in church because the Bible tells us don't give up the habit of meeting with one another. So, what I always say is we can't know what the new thing will be like AI or whatever technology, but I always know what the answer is. The answer is to walk in the wisdom that's been given because it's revealed wisdom. It's not from a person. It's through the spirit. It's God breathed wisdom given to us. And I I can say, you know, walked with the Lord now, oh goodness, I don't know how many years. And what's true has been proven true, you know, um and I'm more I more believe it today that I can like all these things that come at us um that maybe seem like threats. I I do think the Bible walking in that way is always the protectant to the emergent threat that's coming. Um and and we can hold fast to that and be hopeful in that. And I that that's I say that a lot about parenting, but I think it's true about all things in life. Um because we get back to what's true is true. Um well, we are as always taking much too long. So, I'm sorry about that, but we can't not talk about one of the your biggest theological story of this year was just Charlie Kirk. I remember we were on a pub committee call when you mentioned the first um that he had been shot. He he was still alive at that point, I guess, but um afterwards we all heard the shocking news that he had been um killed um tragically and um we saw, you know, Erica Kirk um at the funeral. forgive um the man who killed her husband in such a you know display of faith and grace in a lot of ways and there have been so many discussions I can't quite follow everything that's happening um with what's going on um as this takes shape it's definitely a comma in in your in your world but >> absolutely >> what what are some of the theological discussions and debates that have been sparked by by his death um you know what what have you seen happening and you've been part of some of those >> for sure. Yeah. I think the biggest conversation that really surprised me because it wasn't it wasn't prompted in any obvious way was the this question of now is the third way dead. So for PE I mean I I assume at this point everybody knows who Charlie Kirk was and they didn't not everybody did know that uh at the time. >> Yeah I didn't I mean I this is where I felt like old and out of touch. I was like who I was googling as you were saying this on our call. I was like I don't know who this person is. Well, goes it I I think the the basic argument has been that some evangelical leaders told us that we shouldn't engage in partisan political activism, especially from the pulpit because that might drive people away from the church. And the response was, well, look at Charlie Kirk. He was out there doing apologetics. He was out there doing evangelism. And he was also out there campaigning very overtly and directly um in massive ways for President Trump and for his his Republican party. And he seems to be very popular among young people and in fact a lot of young people especially young men who might not otherwise be in the church seem to be showing an interest in church as a result of that. So that was the overall question and that was the response that seemed to come in in that wake. But it did seem to also misunderstand a lot of different dynamics about the nature of calling. Um how a pastor's calling could be different from Charlie Kirk's calling. Um, I think one of the challenges we have is that a lot of pastors would prefer to be political pundits than to be pastors because it does seem like there's a lot more action when it comes to politics there. So that was one of the overall debates and that was one that I engaged in because it seemed that for whatever reason the person who was often invoked was Tim Keller um as the foil to to Charlie Kirk and my simple thought was well Tim has been dead for a couple years now as a different generation different I mean he's a pastor it's a different calling also different circumstances at the time. So, I don't really think that these are fruitful comparisons, but it did then bring a lot of good theological discussion about can we just say what is true as far as we understand it. Do we always have to be so concerned about how people are going to receive that truth? Do we always have to nuance it in such a way that would seem to be designed to favor one group's anticipated rejection of that truth. Okay, these are perfectly legitimate theological conversations to be able uh to have. And you might be able to look at an issue like say one that's been really prominent in previous years, especially last years. You might look at like trans ideology or something like that and say, I mean, I don't think JK Rowling I don't I don't think she really coddled people in the way she aggressively denounced these things. She wasn't overly worried about how people were going to perceive her. She didn't seem to be looking to carve a Well, actually, I think to correct myself, she did in some ways carve a third way, which was non-trans, pro- feminist. >> Mhm. at the same time, which you know, because clearly she's not coming from these issues as some sort of right-wing conservative per se and not coming from explicitly Christian perspective either. So that would be an example of of a third way. And others, especially Glenn Scriber, who's uh one of our fellows at the Keller Center, done a great job of showing how virtually everybody just they almost always have people that they disagree with on multiple sides. Mhm. It >> the setting yourself up to have no enemies to your left or your right is a really really um devious way or kind of a guaranteed way for you to to go to places that you don't want to go or that you shouldn't go. So the other theological question that came out of this was how are we going to look back on Charlie Kirk? Because there was a good bit of feedback from people who saw certain clips, who had certain experiences and thought, "No, I don't like this guy at all. He seems to be insensitive at least. He seems to be offensive at worst, especially perhaps to some minority groups." Plenty of people had that reaction as well. When somebody's been in the spotlight that much in their 20s, it's not surprise all sorts of different things that they're going to say. You could also come back and say, "Also, those people sometimes change." I don't know. I'm not going to adjudicate that whole whole record there. But when we look back on it, will we say, "Yeah, Kirk was an example of the real problems that we have on the right that people need to push back against, or will we say, "Wow, I didn't know how much Charlie Kirk was holding back on the right that he was pushing back against." M >> and of course Melissa, that would be a third way >> again of saying no, I I don't agree with Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes or any number of these voices out there. Fuentes was the one primarily that he argued with a lot, especially on racial issues, and who came out very emphatically afterward saying, "I'm going to hijack your entire organization. Your crowd follows me. Forget it. You're you're you're done and gone." So that's why it's a comma because I certainly cannot dictate right now or analyze right now how that's going to be remembered. That's still a story in progress. >> Yeah. And I think maybe a good lesson that we can all take is it's it's always good to be bold with the gospel. I mean like we can we can all take that on and Paul asked to pray for boldness with the gospel. So, you know, some of us may need a little like, you know, hey, be bold. This is what the line I keep saying in this in this podcast is what's true is true. You can be bold with the truth. And then yet at the same time, remain cur remain curious about other people's views. Not in a way that we have to believe what they're saying is true, but just to seek to understand the person behind the thought we maybe disagree with. Because what I always say I if what we believe is that the spirit is the only thing that can open our eyes to understand the gospel. Um well it makes sense that people don't believe unless the spirit opens their eyes. So we can sit and listen to someone's maybe very mistaken view but to seek so that we might have inroads with the gospel. Um I did a I did a deep dish episode with Becky Pippert on this and she's just a master at it. I mean, every time she gets on an airplane with someone, she's just go, you know, and it's amazing how the Lord can use her boldness, but her listening ear um to really allow, you know, the spirit to do his work in the lives of people. And so, I think it's it's good for us to not be so complacent that we just kind of rest on our laurels. Um, you know, I think it's maybe been a good push in some of those directions. And also at the same time though to remember, you know, it's it's not an argument to to win a person though to try to share the gospel with. Um and and that's a that's a tough balance to hold a lot of times in our evangelism. Um >> so we have discussed a lot in your top 10 the we're we're an hour in >> and you've interviewed 23 people this year on Gospel Bound. I'll probably be your longest interview. Um, any ones that stood out to you this year? Any upcoming ones maybe that you're really looking forward to? >> Yeah, I got a few few of those, Melissa. Um, I I mean, I think people are probably sick of hearing me talk about my friend Alan Levi in his book, A Theo of Golden. But conversation with Allan was definitely a highlight. We had Allen at our 25 National Conference this last year was exciting. Um, the big news lately is that he debuted at number seven on the fiction New York Times bestseller list for that book. Um, now that could be confusing to people because that book's been out for a while. How can it just debut on the New York Times bestseller list? It's because that book was independently published. Um, I know we've had phenomena like this in the past. Some of the biggest bestsellers the last 25 years have actually been independent, but it is it is rare. And think about this, Melissa, and you've read the book. Um, there was no audio book version of it >> until Simon and Schustster picked it up and um >> I'd love to hear him reading it. I bet it's excellent. Yeah, Allan's not the one reading it, but um they've got a they've got a bonafide Hollywood star reading it as you'd expect from Simon Schustster. But Allan would be great reading it. That would have been >> I think I think the story was >> that >> his friends encouraged him to do it, but he just said he didn't have experience doing it. But especially he's such a good folkteller, folk storyteller, singer, songwriter, >> it would have been perfect. But again, going with the going with the big famous name makes a lot of sense. But um yeah, so and we should be expecting another another novel in that in that uh golden universe from Allen in the future. But >> Oh, good. >> Yeah. So, my family went down to to visit Allen uh at the coffee shop that he talks about in the book and and just spend some time with him. he was wrestling with that decision at the time, but um I'm going to be as we're recording this, I'm going to be doing doing two events with him tomorrow. Uh so that's pretty that's pretty fun. So um and I didn't know him at all through this until reading the book. So it's been a fun fun process of getting to know him through that um through that excitement. So, couple of interviews that I did, uh, Ross Douet also hit the New York Times bestseller list for the first time ever with his apologetics book, uh, believe Nicholas Carr's book um, on the shallows, um, was a really important one this year, really going along with a lot of the things that we've discussed here related to AI and and, uh, wisdom and discernment with technology. Um, that was a that was a fun interview. And then Bobby Jameson's Everything is Never Enough, his book on Ecclesiastes, that really stood out. um really stood out to me. Bobby is both a dynamic writer and also a dynamic interview and preacher. So, that's really fun as a combination of someone there. But, uh coming up for next year, Carl Truman has a major new book coming out. Uh Alistister McGrath I'll be talking to and then also we'll have Kathy Keller um on the on the show. So, those are a few that we've got we've got scheduled there. So now you bring us up to speed on Deep Dish. You guys just wrapped up your 26th episode. >> The the listeners have been great. It's just been very enthusiastically received. Um tell us a little bit about what you're excited about looking back and looking ahead. >> Yeah, Courtney and I have had a lot of fun. It's been um great to get to have so many interesting interviews. I think one of, you know, one of our most popular was with Jen Wilin about um aging and that being a disciplehip issue. I mean, that that's that's a topic women um definitely seem to want to talk about, you know, and is very uh >> Why is that, Melissa? >> It's very in your face. Uh because I think I mean I I think it's the Instagram culture. I mean, look, I I I mean, I look back at pictures of myself in college. I'm like, we didn't know how to stand. We didn't I mean, we had film cameras, you know? We weren't we weren't living for a picture. And now people are living for the picture. >> Everything. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a totally different world. And so, therefore, when you hear, "Oh, I'm getting an injection." Yeah. I mean, it just changes how you view aging and in some ways it becomes the pursuit rather than aging. Well, um, and that that it really is a disciplehip issue cuz to be honest, it takes a lot of time to to look halfway decent that older you get. And when you're com like when I think about like my grandmother for instance, she looked old the whole time I remember her and she wasn't that old. >> Yeah. >> So, what what used to be appropriate aging seems very very different now. So anyway, those are some some of the good discussions we're having and it's really fun. We've talked about mentoring. We had Jackie Hill Perry on to talk about coveting, which was another thing I think um has just only grown in the culture we're in with Instagram. You know, it's so easy to see. Yeah. I wrote Envy of Eve before Instagram was a thing. >> Your friends are always on vacation. Always. friends are always on vacation in great locations. >> Yeah, I know. I know. It's pretty. Anyway, so those are just those are the things we're talking about. It's been really fun to be able to laugh a lot and yet at the same time be talking about deep, you know, deep theological truths. And I think um what we're trying to do um and hoping to do is spark conversations that then will happen around real tables in real local churches. We don't want people just listening to us. We hope they're having those conversations. In fact, we write questions for every episode and we hear from women who are doing them in small groups and they're having those conversations and that's been one of the most fun things to see happen because what we want is not more isolation but more community in your real community. Um, and so that's that's what we're hoping to do. That's really meaningful, Melissa, to be able to say, "We don't want you to have vicarious friendships through us, listening to us, but to translate this into your your relationships there." Um, that's very thoughtful of you guys. Um, my editor's choice list, the best of 2025 at TGC, has your episode with Jackie in it. And I just thought it's a good sign for a podcast when one of your most popular episodes is about a sin. I think that's a that's general a general sign of spiritual health. I think >> that's also my proclivity. I'm like, let's talk about how bad we are, Colin. Like I'm just, you know, I'm like, >> tell me you're reformed without telling me you're reformed. >> Exactly. Let's just talk about the darkness in your heart. And yeah, that's I'm a lot of fun to be around. Yeah, it's great. >> That's why these take so long. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, books. This is We have to We always We already had a midyear book conversation. And >> I only have one. I I only have one. >> I mean, I could give a lot more. >> Do we need to get you in counseling? What's going on? Okay, you have one. Okay. What What's a book you want to talk about? Well, um, sometimes you go through good and bad streaks of book reading. You know, sometimes you're like, "Man, that was that was amazing." And then that was amazing. And and then sometimes you're just kind of dragging yourself at your the books on your nightstand. But, um, I read this book just recently. It is. And this special for you, Melissa. Bla1 Pascal, the man who made the modern world by Graham Tomlin, UK author, former bishop in the Church of England, UK publisher. So that's pretty rare. Um, I mean, we know some good UK publishers and publish with them, but it's not that common for me to read one from this publisher in particular. Just they don't um tend to market as well or distribute as well in the United States. But um this was just exemplary of all sorts of different things. Um I mean Melissa because I'm not trained as a as a mathematics instructor like you are. Um I don't think I could have told you what I mean I could have told you Pascal was a big deal and I could have guessed at some of the reasons why especially related to air pressure or something like that. So the book gave me a much better sense of, >> oh, this guy has a real claim to be the most significant >> inventor and figure of the enlightenment. Maybe he isn't, but he's definitely has a claim to be able to do that. And the list of of inventions from things like, you know, barometric pressure, tested with altitude, things like that. I mean, um, not to mention basically inventing the calculator and the computer and all sorts of crazy stuff like that, probability theory. I mean, it was really blew me away. But primarily the book is about his apologetics and especially about his extremely dynamic encounter, emotional, personal, mystical encounter with the Lord, his night of fire. um that completely transformed his life. So imagine getting a book about this Augustinian flamed piety combined with, you know, all of the stuff of this is maybe the most significant inventor of the Enlightenment combined with also probably the second most accomplished cultural apologist of all time after Augustine who was his who was his inspiration. And it got to the point, Melissa, where I was so excited about it that I sat my whole family down and they learned they learned Pascal's um Pascal's apologetic for the existence of God from his hiddenness in a very Austinian kind of sense. But >> remind the audience of the ages of your children, Colin. >> Uh 10 and seven and four. Okay, just wanted everyone to know they're not like mine or >> who knows what they remembered, but I was pretty excited about it. But I don't know if you just if you thought think about all the ways I guess what I come back to so often is Jesus, his family did not believe in him as the son of God before the cross. I mean, we're talking about his brothers and sisters here. um he appears to thousands of people who do not believe in him after the resurrection. I go back to the story of of of of Lazarus and you know I mean going to I mean being in hell and like go warn my brothers even if they knew a man was raised from the dead they would not believe. And so there's and then you you look at all the the the the messianic secret of the gospels Jesus telling everybody you know don't tell anybody about about me. You look back on the prophets and you see the which is then manifest especially from Isaiah but it's manifest in the parables. I'm sharing these parables with you so that you will not believe. Not to make it easier to believe but so you will not believe. You realize that belief is not directly connected to evidence. And that is the central insight kind of challenge of the enlightenment is that if God's real he'd leave proof. Well, first of all, what we've seen, and this is Ross Douet's book, what we've seen in all of the study of the cosmos, is more evidence of God, the Big Bang theory, I mean, all this sort of stuff. We're only seeing more evidence of it. And so, you keep coming back saying, "Well, but it's not enough." And Pascal's argument is, "Of course it's not, cuz you don't want it to be enough." >> Mhm. >> Because belief is about your heart. It's a moral issue. It's not an evidence issue. >> And all of a sudden, all these things were just locking into place like, of course, you can see a man raised from the dead who is perfectly sinless and you don't believe in him because you want to follow. You don't want to believe. Anyway, great book. >> That's Blaze Pascal. >> What's it called again? >> Bla1 Pascal, Man Who Made the Modern World by Graham Tomlin. Excellent book. That's I have to read that one. >> We also put him in context. I I always heard about what does it mean that he's a Jansenist? Jansenists sound a lot like Calvinists, but they're Catholics. Well, Tomlin does a really great job of explaining Pascal was very adamant that he was not a Calvinist. At the same time, because he was so robustly Augustininian, h there's a lot of commonalities there. So >> interesting. Anyway, well, you let's give us some other examples in here for people who might not be excited about Bla1 Pascal. Let's give them some other alternatives. What stood out to you you're reading this year, Melissa? >> Well, what I'm reading right now actually is a book I found and we were we our family, we're a little bit of a bookish family. So, after we go to dinner together, we always head to Barnes & Noble and just spend 30 minutes perusing the titles together. And I stumbled across this book called I'm Looking for a Kind Person. And it was an advertisement that was put in um British newspapers for um after after um the Nazi regime moved into Austria and Vienna was overtaken. Um, some of these families put adverts in British papers basically trying to get their kids out of um, Nazic controlled Vienna, which can you imagine putting an advertisement for someone to take your child? And that's what these were. And there were six. And so the the author of the book, his father was one of them, but there were six on the page he found in the newspaper. And so he traces all six. And so I've been reading it. It's pretty I mean so it's amazing where these kids ended up. Some did end up in the UK, some were in Shanghai. I didn't even know that part of the story. Um some ended up in concentration camps and amazingly lived. And so it's been it's it's just been an interesting way to look at six stories that were all in this advertisement um in line together and the reality of that, you know, is very sobering. Anyway, so it's been it's it's well done. It's it's really interesting where it goes and it's um it's so linked to him because it was his dad. Um and so you're hearing kind of through the eyes of a son who didn't know this about his father. His father ended up committing suicide later in life and he never actually had the conversations with his dad. So he did all this work afterwards. >> Wow. But but I have to say I have been reading a lot of old books and >> CS Lewis would be proud. >> If I could give uh uh an exhortation to writers in our age, it is to to not just take the time to write what is true, but to make it beautiful when you write it. Um I have to say I've been reading some this book. It's called future tenses future tenses of the blessed life by FB Meyer. Um, someone gave it to an old it's an old copy of the book. Someone gave it to me and I just slowly read it and it's good for my soul and I I'm trying to figure out what some of these older writers do so well. Um because they yes they're always speaking truth but they're doing it in such a way that's an old truth and I it feels fresh and I don't know that we're mass- prodducing everything these days and there's a lot of true stuff but it doesn't sing. Um and I I'd love some more more more books that sing if I could if I could. >> You've got the poet you've got the poet in you. >> Yeah. I I like I like to feel something people. I want to, you know, be convinced but but with the beauty of something. Um, and and some writers and I mean the Puritans, I just think this, yeah, they're looking at nature all the time and so they're drawing from what is out there and making it so that you resonate with the truth of something differently. Like I mean, every time I think about sin, I'm like, Satan, he, you know, he hides he shows the bait and he hides the hook. I'm thinking it every time. I'm like, h it's and it it helps. >> Yeah. >> You know, it helps you understand the odiousness of sin in a beautiful way. Um like he's just trying to trap you like and anyway, it it resonates. And so rather than just be like, "Sin is bad. Stop." That's how I feel like some of our modern day writing is. Sin's real bad. Don't do it. It does help me as a modern writer who doesn't always uh whose writing does not always sing to realize it's not that all books in the past were good. It's that we've chucked the bad ones. >> And so there must be all sorts of libraries that were full of bad Puritan writings. >> You're right. You're right. >> But if you bring it down to like the 10 best, got pretty good list there. >> That's right. I think that's why so much in the digital life is curation. And that's a lot of the work that you and I do, including in our podcasts, is try to tell people, hey, I know it's hard. You're busy. You don't have time to read 50 books so that you can find one book. That's why we do things like TGC Book Awards and and do podcasts like this to say, "This book by Graham Tomlin was not the only book I read this year, but it was one that was most memorable to me." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. >> Any other books? Right. What are you I am excited about what you're working on. What are you working on? And I'm very excited about what you're working on. So, tell everyone. >> Yeah. Lord Lord willing in 2026 I'll finish the first draft of a book tentatively titled uh Churchill and Lewis for the salvation of the world. Um for some reason that I've not been able to quite understand yet. Um, Churchill and Lewis are two of the most popular and gifted and still read writers in the history of the English language. They were also writing at their peak at the same time through the same events and those of course would be the events of the Second World War. And yet for some reason they're never mentioned in the same conversations. Um, one person put it to me as we always think of CS Lewis in black and white. He's a historical figure. Whereas we always think of um, so we think we think about Churchill as a historical figure. We think about CS Lewis as a figure of any era. And part that's because he's a fantasy writer and part it's because he's so good um, as a writer. his works aren't um linked to history like Churchill's I mean Churchill's so linked to historical moment Lewis you wouldn't you know Narnia you're not we don't we don't attach to a moment >> we don't but of course it does start with a historical it does event that's right >> at least the the lion witch in the wardrobe uh does so I guess that is part of what I'm trying to contribute to is an understanding of the chronology of Lewis's writings and their significance ificance. So if and I have written a little bit about this for TGC already, but if somebody told you that the first of his space trilogies came out on the you know basically the same time as the Munich agreement um 1938 and then the last one is 1945 um the same month the atomic bomb is dropped. Well, that would seem to be pretty significant information for somebody who's writing about whether we should be invading foreign planets, for example, and whether science should be trusted to be able to tell us everything. I mean, that's the context, the space trilogy. I'm not the first person to point that out. >> A cohort on that space trilogy. I just finished it this year and like I'm just putting it out there. Can we have a TGC cohort working through Lewis's books? Yeah, it's a good idea >> because I left that space trilogy like what on earth is happening here? The bear just you know what >> for I mean there's a lot of stuff's >> Merlin and the bear. I'm sorry. I don't know what to do with either of those. >> It's like Santa showing up in Narnia. Lewis just does these things. >> This is why Tolken didn't like it. So this he didn't he didn't like it at all. Um, as terms of world building, I think we can say that Tolken is pretty better than Lewis in my take at least. Hot takes that'll get me in trouble maybe from some viewers and listeners. But I do think Melissa that that that third book just as an example if somebody tells you yeah it's basically a storyified version of the abolition of man and the inner ring. >> Well, doesn't that make a little bit more sense >> then? Yeah. like the entire thing. Just go back and read the abolition of man, read the inner ring, smash them together with the with the conclusion to what he started with in 38 with the same main character, same three people primarily. That makes a little bit of sense. And then there's a bear and then there's Merlin. So, >> and Venus Venus is in there, too. I mean, there's a lot going on. >> I mean, you're talking about the the second book in there. Yeah. I mean you're you're it's it know it admittedly gets very confusing. I think people know in general that mere Christianity were talks during the Second World War. Okay, I think they know that. But do they do they understand all of the other things that he wrote during that war? The great divorce, the abolition of man, the inner ring. I mean on and on and on through there. Um, in fact, that clearly was the pinnacle of his apologetic work and the pinnacle of his literary output. Um, then you add on things there that are among the most moving things I've ever read, learning in wartime. Uh, learning in wartime is of course at the beginning of the war, which makes a lot more sense when you've understood where he was coming from in the first world war. It's basically autobiographical. Um, but also he's drawing from Toltoy. Isn't it interesting? Okay. Toltoy is there. Toltoy comes up later for him in the inner ring as well. Well, Toltoy was one of the greatest if not the greatest writers of all time about war um and what it meant and what it did not mean. So that's very formative for him. And then he comes back later on living in the atomic age. Similar approach there. So the basic takeaway is intended to be when we think about our own sense of civilizational decline or even collapse Christianity, you know, we're in a post-christendom era, but we're in a post-enlightenment, you know, we're not in Pascal's age in either in either sense anymore. We're searching for what's next. So we have historical analoges. The thing about Churchill and Lewis is that they didn't have any tangible imminent reasons to think that their civilization, Western Christian civilization, would survive a conflict that was pretty much certainly in 1941 when they're going gang busters with all their writing and speeches and everything was really about a com was a contest between communism and fascism. So, they didn't have any sense. I mean, imagine Lewis's writings if he had actually ended up like Bonhaofer. You never get Narnia as an example. But Oxford was the city that Churchill planned to make his capital if he'd taken England. Imagine England without without Churchill. Of course, you can't. But imagine Churchill's speeches if he loses. Well, they don't sound so great anymore. But he didn't know that they were going to be Churchill's famous war speeches. He didn't know that. He just knew that there was pretty the odds were not good. Um, and so I'm trying to derive a lot of lessons from these things. I find it interesting that Churchill was the most pessimistic about Hitler, but the most optimistic about Britain. >> He got a lot of things wrong, but he was dead right on those two things. And it's amazing what that can cover for and everything else. So, you don't look back on these guys and think they're right about everything and they're very different from each other. In one clear sense, Churchill's focused on this world and Lewis is focused on the next world. And that's an interesting path that we have to choose. And I don't say that lightly because without Churchill does Lewis survive. >> Yeah. >> But what Churchill fought for, especially the British Empire dissolved and what Lewis fought for was of course an eternal kingdom. So lot of lot to work through there. I've got a few more months to be working on it. Listen, I mean you always have a lot of books yourself in the works. Of course, you're overseeing our events. We've got a big one coming up this year as we always do. Give us a little preview. >> Yeah, we've got TGCW26. It's our National Women's Conference coming up and it's on Psalms and turning our eyes to um the different genres of Psalms, how they help us turn in faith to to Christ and to God and yeah, with all of our emotions. um whether it's lament, whether it's wisdom, there are psalms of wisdom, there are, you know, psalms of praise, there are psalms of joy. Um but then, you know, it's helpful to see the range of emotions offered in the psalms. So, we're looking forward to that. Um, the thing I'm probably most excited about, Mike and I have worked together on a family devotional and I'm really excited about it because I think it's pretty I think it's unique in that um the devotionals are actually for the parent and I worked on Mike wrote those on Mark. So, uh, what we hear the most about why we don't do family devotions. I think a lot of people don't feel equipped to do them. And so, we wanted to, um, Deuteronomy 6 says, you know, you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Um, these words that I command you are to be on your heart, then it's teach them to your children. And so the goal with what we've done is to allow the parent to be learning through the Gospel of Mark so that they're equipped well to ask good family devotional questions. And then I wrote all the questions for younger children, for older children because we were a family who had a six-year spread. So I often had an elementary, middle school, and high schooler at family devotions in the morning. How do you do this? And you know, I mean, my heart is education and um helping people learn and writing curriculum. So, it's I'm really excited about it because uh I I heard Mike teach through all these the Gospel of Mark over two years at an RTS women's Bible study and man, I was not a big fan of Mark. I I mean, it's the gospel. I love it. I was always been a fan of John. >> But Mark, there's no there's no fanfare. There's no frrills, you know, it's just kind of straight up. >> And now, man, I love it. I just after studying in depth, I I was like, "Oh, wow. This is a great place to start with your kids. is a great I I've just you know the thought of man what can happen around the family dinner table if I could just say to parents don't worry that your kids's going to play sports worry that they know the gospel of Mark worry that they know the scriptures you know uh and and it takes time >> right worries >> yeah have the right concerns and so I look back as all of my kids have launched and if I could say I would the things I would do again it would be those morning time conversations about God's word. Don't, you know, I don't neglect it with your kids. That's my my my big cheerleader advice as a big sister in the in the church to say um those are some of the most valuable conversations you'll have as a family and they form the basis for everything else. So, as you can tell, I'm excited about it. Um and hope it will just be a springboard to get more families talking about God's word together. >> Amen. Mark is what our family reads through together. Um it's a great one. Feeding of the 4,000. >> Yeah. >> Just was one of our last ones in there. >> Well, I mean, tell us a little bit about um I mean I I think Melissa, if if folks are still watching and they're listening now, um I just want to say thank you. And I also want to say you're probably already donating to TGC in some way or another. So, >> keep hug on this long. >> Exactly. Exactly. If if you've stuck with us through all these things, then you probably are also already a generous and grateful donor to TGC. So, we want to say thank you for you. Um, if if that's the case or at least you're somebody who you're excited to come to our women's conference, you're coming back to our national conference in 27 or you're signing up for those cohorts. Melissa's already planned one right here. Melissa's got great ideas in case you guys didn't know. So already got one about studying Lewis's works. We actually do have a cohort that we're planning on the cultural apologists through history which will include Lewis but not a focus necessarily um on all that. But we should do one of that on the I think those reading cohorts are really good. But um yeah, I think uh well let's just maybe tell them a little bit about other ways they can support TGC and some of the other things maybe that we're doing that they don't know anything about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I mean what we're so grateful for I mean TGC really does run on the the gifts of our donors. I mean people probably don't know that. Um it's a huge way we get to do the work we do. Um and as Colin will say all the time, our our hope and desire is not that you um come to TGC to to find your community or your life, but our goal is to help the local church. help the local church pastor in particular, you know, but other leaders in the church um flourish and um just have encouragement on a on a daily basis. So, that's what we're trying to do um through the different things we do, whether it's podcast, all those things. Ways you can help. You can support the work of TGC with a onetime gift. You can become a monthly donor, tgc.orgg. you can go check out there, but you can also just support by leaving reviews on podcasts, sharing our work. Like that's a huge way, you know, pass on articles that are helping you to other people. Um it really supports the work that we're doing and we're so appreciative. Um we really are. It uh we're we're thankful that we get to do what we do. It's a joy. >> Yeah. If you if you care about what's happening in Gen Z that they come to know Christ then supporting TGC is a way to do that. One of our biggest major we've been talking about this but one of the biggest undertakings we've ever done at the Gospel Coalition certainly at the Keller Center is our upcoming making sense of us group study curriculum. This is evangelism. This is disciplehip. that's aimed especially at Gen Z, filmed with Keller Center fellows around different locations in New York City, helping people to understand the stories that are shaping us, but also how those stories fall short compared to the story of all stories in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, that's one way you care about Gen Z. Another way that your support of TGC directly benefits us is if you want to see the next generation um discipled in how good and bad ways to use AI um ethical ways that we should implement or non-ethical ways that we should avoid. Not only that, but even shaping the very products themselves, the regulations, the the efforts, the conversations that we're having at the highest levels right now related to AI are both encouraging to know that we have a seat at the table, but also a little bit scary to know that um there's a lot that's still up for grabs. But that's when you're when you're contributing to TGC, that's something that you help us to be able to do. Melissa mentioned, I mean, it's about half of the money that we bring in is coming from donations. So again, it's what really makes all this stuff possible. If you want to support or continue to see, especially in the AI era, flourishing full Bible commentary available for anybody who reads and studies the Bible, whether they're teaching in some country, um, where they don't have a lot of access to books, which is very common, access to internet, but not books, especially through mobile devices. That's one of the I mean a free Bible commentary is one of the best places to be able to help people like that. Not to mention any student group that's getting together and saying, "Hey, let's study Romans together." Wonderful. The Gospel Coalition has a trusted free commentary available online to be able to use in your preparation for that or your small group or your Sunday school you're teaching or anything like that. And then as you mentioned there as a digital ministry, we're always convictionally trying to point people back to those relationships and back to the church. One of my favorite ways that we do that is through our church directory. Our church directory is the largest one that I'm aware of, but we're overhauling it to make it even more helpful to people. We expect that to debut in 2026. Um, but that's one way you support. It's about as I just love it, Melissa, because it's so practical. It's just, hey, a friend of mine is moving to another town. Do you know of a good church that you can recommend? Of course. And we also know based on some surveys and data that we've run and we've published that that's the main reason people fall away from the church is cuz they just move. They don't find a new church. So if you want to help push back and evangelize and disciple, one of the best ways to do it is simply have a good functioning church directory that people know about. So that's one thing that you're you're um your finances support there as well. So um Melissa, before we go, do you have a favorite thing this year? Well, maybe the favorite thing should be we just end this episode because people are gonna >> That's fair enough. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. I'll stick with my Graham Tomlin uh recommendation on Pascal. That was clearly my >> my favorite thing. That was That was fun. Well, anyway, >> so you got to give me something something food preparation. Anything in here? Gift to recommend? >> I don't know. Well, how about how about how about Okay, let's be a shill about this. Your own you have you have a Christmas book. >> Oh, thanks. No, I do love my I I do and I can say this is an honest truth. I give my kids a new Christmas book every year. So, it's called The Gift of All Gifts. It talks about why we give gifts at Christmas because that is one of those things that can Christmas can become all about the gifts and I wanted a book that actually teaches kids why we do this. So that's what it's about. And it's it it's in rhyming. It's fun to read. >> This is very gifted. >> Very gifted at that. Thanks for sharing that gift, Melissa, with with the rest of us. Well, thanks for persevering, everybody out there, you're watching on YouTube or wherever and listening to Gospel Bound and and the deep dish. Your comments when I run into people and or you send an email or you come up to us at church or anything like that is really encouraging. It actually helps shape things because then we know, okay, that's that's working or that's not working. That's helping people, that's not helping people. Really appreciate that. Must already mentioned, you can help by rating, reviewing, recommending our podcast. If you go to tgc.org/give, that's the best way you can be able to support onetime gift, monthly gift, even $25 a month. It's extremely helpful to us. So, thank you for your generous support there. Um, we'll just end say merry Christmas, happy new year. Lord willing, we'll do this next year. We're going to hope it's also not a super newsworthy year. Those are the better years. >> We still spend an hour and 40 minutes on a non-news year. Like, just prepare, prepare. >> I I am justly rebuked for that, Melissa. Thank you. All right, you guys are commuting. You're you're washing dishes, you're you're working out, all the ways you you join us. We don't take it for granted. We really appreciate it. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.